Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

That's because r/transgenderUK is a support group, not a discussion forum. A support group for trans people is not obliged to accommodate non-trans people wanting to come in and announce their unpleasant opinions anymore than an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting is obliged to provide floorspace to people who believe all alcoholics are incurable degenerates, even if that be their sincerely held opinion.

"I can't possibly talk to people who disagree with me because I can't post on this one specific subreddit which is not a space for that kind of discussion" is just an excuse. You've got the entirety of the rest of the internet and social media to seek out people whose opinions differ than yours. And yet you choose to start your discussions on mumsnet, a space where you already know the vast majority of posters will support your existing confirmation bias.

Also doesn't know what 'dog-whistle' means in this context..

Schrodinger's witness: both very sure and able to point to all kinds of things and details that he sees as serving his purpose, but utterly ignorant of and uninvolved in anything that might not.

Question, because I've not really followed many of your posts.

Do you think that transwomen should be in menopause support groups or breastfeeding support groups?

From TT:

NC: p299 (main)
NC: Enthusiastic response by Liz Willows to a suggestion of training on identifying dog-whistles - things that sound OK but are actually hateful?
ST: I know what term means, but I don't know about this training mentioned

NC: This is part of what the mob you roused came up with, isn't it?
ST: Didn't rouse a mob. Let me read and see context. [reads] yes it's in comments to a post I made.

NC: p1421 (main)
NC: Familiar with?
ST: No - I think I'd recognise if I had
NC: I will ask others about it then.

<and over to @fanOfBen with thanks>

And yet here you are.

Not being banned. And rightly so.

In case you didn't see my like, yes sure. (There may be a very short interruption when I get to the head of the Bayeux Tapstry ticket queue!)

Thank you myladydisdainisyetliving
And FanofBen

From TT:

NC: para 29 of your WS you say trans ppl will be less able to be open about their identity if others are given platform to express views. Clear that EDW's post landed badly with you?
ST: Let me read paragraph [does so]

ST: I say allowing GC statements will increase anxiety and mean ppl less open about their identity
NC: My Q is that this was an unwelcome and unexpected post?
ST [missed]

Thank you for that laugh. Its been a hard day for other reasons but you do offer much mirth.

Let's hope the judge cares enough to see through that. I, myself, would make a terrible judge on this tribunal, because I'd be bored stupid by now, thinking 'Oh, who f-ing cares what you thought you saw in something you never even saw'?

Just a request before I step away

Well yes, because this board, unlike r/transgenderUK is a discussion forum.

Why on earth do you think a support group for trans people would or should accommodate non-trans people coming in wanting to debate the validity of the very people the group is set up to support?

Re tolerance, I'm sure I've told this story before, but I post of a big Aussie sport-based talkboard, mostly the rugby league. I've been on there ten, fifteen years, long time. One day I decided to take a look in the General Folder, saw a thread called 'Transgender', and dipped in. After about three posts I got the ban hammer. For posting a link to 'the shewon'. site (lists female athletes displaced by men). Which, as everyone knows (don’t they, Tinkerbell?) is highly, highly transphobic. So I got a fortnight in purdah, when I couldn't even log on to read exactly what offence I'd committed, plus a life ban from the general folder, and the promise of a life ban from the entire site if there was any repetition. Which is a rather scary view on the situation in Australia.

If we rule out ST being stupid, then ...

From TT:

NC: But if no platform to express views, GC ppl will not feel able to be open about their identity, won't they?
ST: In the work place yes
NC: You paused for a long time?
ST: I like to make sure I'm going to give correct answer

NC: The idea ppl might have different views is very puzzling to you?
ST: Not at all

J: May I - C case is, any expression of GC views, however expressed, should not be allowed, bcs of its meaning for trans ppl?
[I think ST nods]

Jumping ahead but I agree with this, I think the judge knows the Claimant is a complete fantasist, who's worked himself up to an hysterical level over stupid little non existing things. He keeps stepping in so as to avoid having the nutter go in to complete meltdown all over his court. 😂

J: May I - C case is, any expression of GC views, however expressed, should not be allowed, bcs of its meaning for trans ppl?
[I think ST nods]

well done, Judge!

It lost any last scintilla of non-ridiculousness when a book aimed at 3 year olds became a part of the process. Will it be bloody nap time soon FFS?

Hi there Tink - yes he is clearly stupid and ill advised.

And his poor lawyers having to do this pro bono. Waste of time and resources.

Because this has already been dealt with in court, iirc.

From TT:

NC: GC ppl won't be able to find each other, if can't express?
ST: Not in work place

NC: Makes it harder for them to organise in defence of their rights?
ST: Not sure what you mean about rights - DEFRA sets policy, no network is going to change that

NC: Let me try again. Take as given, GC ppl think they have rights to defend, preventing any expression prevents that?
ST: If objections, raise a grievance, it's not a trades union

NC: But if no platform to express views, GC ppl will not feel able to be open about their identity, won't they?
ST: In the work place yes
NC: You paused for a long time?
ST: I like to make sure I'm going to give correct answer

<Sighs heavily>

NC: The idea ppl might have different views is very puzzling to you?
Again, the Judge stepped in to cut off that line of qq - he restated what he thinks is ST's opinion, instead of letting NC explore the limits of ST's tolerance for differing opinions.

Poor us, as taxpayers, having to fucking fund not only Tempest's salary, but his time off, his grievances, his appeal, and now this whole fucking ET including the defence!