Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

O what a tortured web we have woven...

(or something to that effect)

He’ll have picked up a bit from the Menopause group. Or perhaps he also joined a Menstrual Support group! Just up his street I would imagine.

NC - that might be a harmless courtesy if all trans people showed any signs that women's boundaries should be respected.

'Janet Hughes,Director of Future Farming and Countryside Programme, who had been appointed as Appeal Manager'

' 2023, Janet Hughes wrote to me with the outcome of the First
Grievance Appeal.'

ST - I don't know how respect is compared to boundaries.

[no shit, Shelock]

NC - You say that as TW you are entitled to anything a woman is entitled to, can you not seen that women would refuse to use wrong sex pronouns in that circumstances

[I think NC is flogging a dead horse now]

NC - but doesn't the use of feminine pronouns for you reinforce that they believe they are female
ST - no, it's just respect
NC - that might be a harmless courtesy if all trans people showed any signs that women's boundaries should be respected.
ST - I don't know how respect is compared to boundaries.
NC - You say that as TW you are entitled to anything a woman is entitled to, can you not seen that women would refuse to use wrong sex pronouns in that circumstances

The issue of Respect and Boundaries being linked is an alien concept to him.

I'm guessing he's had a lot of training/practice from his witness buddy in preparation for this cross-exam, but he's very often mis-firing and churning out learned responses that don't fit anything that's been asked. And then, when he elaborates, he sounds like the bell-end he truly is.

God I am jealous of the online observers today! 🤣

Who has fallen upwards.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/janet-hughes-to-leave-defra-for-senior-civil-service-role

From TT:

ST - you've widened that out considerably, I don't know how to answer that
NC - over the last several decades, the idea that mis-gendering is very rude and awful has taken hold, is that a victory for GI?
HH - I think we're in a philosophical debate,
J - I don't think this is

taking us anywhere
NC - one more question
J - go ahead
NC - the proposition that misgendering is rude, you are attempting to broaden misgendering to include any mention of sexed bodies
ST - I've been open about the nuances here, and sexed language can be important

I think she is showing that preferred pronouns are not just a courtesy, they reinforce the idea that 'she' is just another woman, entitled to everything women are entitled to.
I think she's making an important point.
I expect the judge will tell her to stop making sense cos it's upsetting, or something😠
edited to say I wrote this before the judge telling her to stop had been posted😡

HH - I think we're in a philosophical debate

HH finally speaks!

ST - you've widened that out considerably, I don't know how to answer that
NC - over the last several decades, the idea that mis-gendering is very rude and awful has taken hold, is that a victory for GI?
HH - I think we're in a philosophical debate,
J - I don't think this is aking us anywhere
NC - one more question
J - go ahead
NC - the proposition that misgendering is rude, you are attempting to broaden misgendering to include any mention of sexed bodies
ST - I've been open about the nuances here, and sexed language can be important

Has anybody drawn Jeremy Clarkson's attention to the fact that this is what DEFRA has been getting up to instead of focusing on making farmers' lives and businesses viable? I think he might have Views.

From TT:

for example in a hospital. But in a workplace, knowingly used sex based language or misgendering is just being cruel, purposefully cruel. No place for it.
NC - please read that exchange from EW to CA on 855 and to 856, let me know when you're read
St - yes

NC - you've read response as well
ST -yes
NC - that exchange demonstrates that you've been successful to expand that taboo on plain language
ST - shows that DEFRA is prepared to enforce respect in the workplace
NC - also will be rarely if ever to use the phrases bio male,

I was thinking exactly the same yesterday when I was watching Clarkson’s farm! Was thinking of emailing him

For me the most salient point in this whole business is that Gender Identity is being proposed purely as a matter of personal freedom and expression, and of basic respect, and not political.........

And yet not agreeing with that or going along with it is totally political.

it is the double standards that are being applied that NC needs to focus on and demonstrate.

Or perhaps J is referencing the internal appeal je made at DEFRA?

I think that on the subject of 'misgendering' ST will just have a long, drawn out 'nothing' response ready for everything she asks. It's part of his 'reality' and he can probably talk about it and dissemble from here to sundown. It's not going to clarify anything for the panel that they don't already know or want to know.

NC - that exchange demonstrates that you've been successful to expand that taboo on plain language
ST - shows that DEFRA is prepared to enforce respect in the workplace

Eg? I thought DEFRA were the respondents?

It’s just fucking ridiculous.

all of this is fucking ridiculous

I think he has other things on his mind.
He is a deeply unpleasant man, but he is a seriously ill one at the moment, and, I wouldn't want to distract him from dealing with his serious health issues.

DEFRA is prepared to enforce respect in the workplace

Beatings will continue until morale improves.

I'd love to see T-shirts with the slogan "WE DISAGREE ABOUT THE WHOLE MENSTRUATION THING, DON'T WE?"

ST - shows that DEFRA is prepared to enforce respect in the workplace

So, he does understand the concept of respect! How interesting.

NC - that exchange demonstrates that you've been successful to expand that taboo on plain language
ST - shows that DEFRA is prepared to enforce respect in the workplace
NC - also will be rarely if ever to use the phrases bio male,