Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

I agree. I have had reasonable adjustments before at work, but what he is requesting is beyond reasonable, beyond, I believe, anything any employer should have to consider. How easy is it to get rid of someone working in the Civil Service? Not very, I would imagine.

Once upon a time I knew the Newcastle RPA office well. It was mostly men who spent much of their working lives being threatened by farmers with guns. Im astounded how this one snuck in and wasn't laughed out of the building. An amazing example of the chilling power of the TRAs.

Operation Let Them Speak in action. It's been fascinating following this today.

What is the claimant actually requesting? Is he still employed by DEFRA and wants the SEEN network taken down? And/or compensation?

This has been absolutely fascinating because this is the first person I have seen on the witness stand in a good long while who appears to have zero awareness he is just ruining his case in real time out of his own mouth.

Most of the others have been about what happened a while ago, and most recent witnesses seem to have an awareness that they need to be VERY careful not to say ‘gender critical views should not be expressed’. They need to be walked there gently. This person appears to be on the witness stand repeatedly demanding that everyone should act exactly how he wants. With no thought for the obvious opposite parallels.

Yes, it will be once she's sworn.

He comes over as having very significant needs.

The question will be have DEFRA handled it properly, got the right policies and ticked every box in terms of reasonable adjustments to avoid culpability, but he's making it look in all honesty as if the only option will be to manage out and encourage him to look at a different field of work where he won't risk encountering information he's not able to cope with.

Thank you @Justabaker And thank you for the sterling work Tribunal Tweets is doing.

Hey, @CriticalCondition, Sarah Phillimore's just quoted you on X!

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/2070535776295604616

He agreed to give written guidance on what he was requesting from NC and her witness.

Thanks to Michael Foran on x for this link. https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/2070488856219062501?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

The ECHR have declared inadmissible an application from a transman who gave birth and is registered as mother on the birth certificate and wants it changed.

https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/news/challenge-to-registration-of-transgender-man-as-mother-declared-inadmissible/

Ooh er!
<twirls>

Christ ST is insufferable. You would think he were the respondent, caught out and trying to justify why he so royally took the piss with sick /special leave and wfh.
Another example of how nothing is ever enough.

Do you think we'll ever see Stonewall in court with someone claiming damages for being mislead? One of their employees maybe, for having their head scrambled, or someone who is now a medical patient due to swallowing their lies. I am a broken record on this but so often I think "take it up with the organisations who sold you a fairytale."
Even an organisation wanting their money back after shelling out for legally inaccurate staff training would be a start.

Nick!!!

https://genderblog.net/a-tempest-in-leeds/?utm_source=noptin&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%20Post%20Notification%20-%20A%20Tempest%20in%20Leeds

It was a woman who gave birth as a mother.

GC people to not be SEEN and generally not be heard.

Disband any ‘network’ that isn’t pro trans I think.

ST's answers read as prompt, full, well-constructed, confident, sometimes argumentative - the judge told him at one point that he had to answer the q as put to him.
He doesn't come across as hesitant, vulnerable or in any way fragile - even when he's talking about being so vulnerable and fragile that he can't do his job.

The batshittery is not in how he expresses himself😏

It will be interesting to see what approach NC takes. It will be a target-rich environment for her

I just can’t get over how absolutely ridiculous Mr Tempest’s evidence is.

If only we’d known trans ideology could be overcome by not believing in it.

Tempest is a fairy 🧚 Tinkerbell and if we don’t believe in him he ceases to exist. So as long as no one claps 👏🏼 we might get through this.

About 3 years. I recently had a member of staff who was in a very basic role. He developed a myriad of issues over time, all the reasonable adjustments put in place, I supported him as much as possible, he wouldn't use any support we offered, expecting us to just take away all the work he "couldn't do" i.e. didn't like doing. Every year he took six, months off sick- stress due to not being able to do the job and feeling singled out as needing support. Multiple occupational health and HR meetings later, they tried to give him elsewhere, no one would take him due to his history and level of support required. Eventually a kind of settlement agreement was offered and he went.

Sadly these types of cases haven't been rare in the CS and a lot of managers I have known just find it easier to park the person in a made up job and leave them to it, or shift them to an unsuspecting team, as the whole process takes so long and takes up a ridiculous amount of time. I can imagine this being the case for ST and ST's manager.

I so hope Naomi will mention Tinkerbell. Tinkerbell Tempest has a ring to it.

It will be interesting to see what approach NC takes. It will be a target-rich environment for her

@MarieDeGournay the judge did say to Naomi, when asking how long she wanted with the claimant, that he expected she would not be covering the same ground as AL.

What I'd like to see Naomi do is very considerately get ST to lay out exactly what the essential core of his belief system is and requires (separate from the current state of law) - including, for example, letting him say that it's an essential part of his belief that nobody should be allowed to say TWANW, or segregate TW from W, or whatever - and then ask him about how this can be reconciled with the fundamental rights of others. I'd like her to demonstrate to the tribunal that his belief system, as explained by him, cannot possibly satisfy the fifth Grainger criterion, as admitted by him.

I do too

The intervenors note focuses on bias in favour of trans people in Defra and the hostile attitude to SEEN. There may have been some choice messages - the respondent read out a few examples.

After that rather stunning day I find myself left wondering why all the Christians I know haven't disappeared because I don't believe the same thing as them, and whether the oh so fragile ST should be allowed out in case he shatters like glass.
Also, why does the tilted head on the pictue of him look like it doesn't really belong there?
So much to ponder.
Sometimes the most vulnerable can be the most dangerous.