Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

From TT:

We resume.
NC - [discussing the order, came in late]
Cannot hear the judge.

Apparently someone seated at bench behind the advocates phone has been flashing. WARNING - WE CANNOT HEAR THE JUDGE

AL - hopefully, you should have the C's supplemental bundle as well
J - inaudible
AL - for tomorrow's purposes if the Tribunal could have that it would help me

NC - would it be sensible to check that we have the entirety of the Int bundle.

AL - only one page to refer you to, we were talking about EW's post, 2 particular publications, go to page 547 of INV bundle. A post from Penny Mills, book club from trans awareness week, book by Shon Faye, the Transgender Issue, event, for trans people, allies, those who believe TWAW, TMAM etc. This is a book about the trans experience,
ST - it's different, this is a book club, it's not advocating buying any book, its from the Environment Agency, if GC people find this is harassing they should put a complaint in about this post. I can't see why it would be a problem. If it's harassing, then complain, lost my train of thought. This is not books aimed at children in a workplace, being sold by an anti-trans org.

I now have two very unwelcome earworms:
Hello Sam, Goodbye Samantha [or vice versa]
and
I Was Born Under A Wandering Bundle.

[I made a mistake and typed 'wandering bungle' 😁]

The Shon Faye who wrote in the Guardian about how much he got euphoria from making female shop assistants feel uncomfortable, that one?

....and that's the "B" word three times in a row! 😬

I can imagine! I’m sure it’s quite an interesting read.
Thanks @anyolddinosaur, I’ll return to peaceful lurking.

Referring to them as bungle's seems appropriate, given how often they are a mess. It might also avoid an appearance.

i don’t think that was Shon, if we’re thinking of the same piece, it was some random anonymous creep.

I asked for mind to be removed. 🥵
(I really like those penguins)

From TT:

AL - in your opinion?
ST - yes but many orgs would agree with me. And there's material on Transgender Trend and their goals and they consider surgery on children to be mutilation.
AL - Transgender Trend were intervenors in the High Court case about the Tavistock. If you say that this post is okay, how can EWs post not be acceptable.

ST - it is different. These SEEN books are directed at children, if I'd had one of those books as a child, I would have denied who I am, never been my true self. Trans people are accused of indoctrinating children, and what are these books except indoctrination and I don't see what this has to do with DEFRA

AL - well that comes back to your perspective
ST yes
AL have you read the books on EW's post
ST I'm aware of the content but not read them cover to cover.
AL - turn to page 734, another EW post, main bundle

AL - an article pub by x-gov SEEN, by Ritchie Herron, experience of de-transitioning,
ST - yes, also published in DEFRA
AL - it's a personal perspective, it refers to de-trans awareness day, int'lly recognised, were you aware of that
ST - I was not aware of detrans day, until I read this post
AL - is it usual for this type of day, like trans day of visibility to be recognised in DEFRA
ST - used to be but they don't post about it anymore
AL - article has a trigger warned, specifically for trans colleagues, choice to not read on
ST - it says that but

Possibly so, for some reason I thought it was him. But it doesn't seem to be listed under his articles so maybe not. Unless he was stealth st that point.

The penguins were splendid!

Shades of The Emperor's New Clothes, as ever - the Emperor is trying to control the narrative to ensure he never has to hear that he's bollock naked.

My Dad used to sing Wandering Star very badly. Those were the days.

Back to the matter in hand.

Fun fact for tribunal geeks while we wait for any progress to be made here....

EJ "Compelled pronouns" Robertson sat in a prelimary hearing for Darlington nurses

https://christianconcern.com/ccpressreleases/judge-in-darlington-case-if-the-trust-does-not-now-comply-it-does-so-at-its-peril/

<drags eyebrows out of hairline>

ST - it is different. [because a woman posted it?]

These SEEN books are directed at children, if I'd had one of those books as a child, I would have denied who I am, never been my true self. [but I thought he was a married man, well into middle-age, before he 'became a woman'?]

Says who? It's not an accepted norm, it's a demand from trans-identified people and their allies which requires the rest of us to deny what we see and hear of the person concerned. Thankfully more and more people, including in the media, are refusing to be browbeaten into lying.

You worried about Regularly Mansplaining Wrongly making an appearance?

Trans day is ok but de-trans is not?

Surely the more trans whether trans trans or de trans or trans to detrans the very much merrier?

I mean if you can transition that way you can trasition back the ways.....

Respect my trans journey Tinkerbell you binary trans path transphobe!

From TT:

I question anything on an internal network that requires a trigger warning
AL - it's being sensitive isn't it
ST - it's a way to allow posting disturbing content
AL - shouldn't someone be allowed to post about their experience
ST - I can see the damage it's going to bring, it's only purpose is to inflame, I question the wiseness of this post.

AL - page 1599, an article by Claire Douglas, published on ITDOV, a quick word about being trans, personal opinions of being trans, then a couple of photos of Claire Douglass, it being International Day of Trans Visibility. No one in DEFRA is saying that shouldn't be published. If that can be published, detrans should also be allowed.

ST - it's two different things, the orig poster put in 'twaw' and had to take it out to get the article published. Richie Herrons has an active legal against the NHS, problems with transition, being weaponised against trans people, positioned to look reasonable on the surface, but really designed to upset people.
AL - why can't you say the same thing about the Claire Douglass article
ST - trans people don't cause harassment

It's the incantation that does it, so I've been told! 😉

'ST - trans people don't cause harassment'

Need to find my eyeballs -they've rolled off somewhere!

Thanks

"This level of bureaucratic arrogance ..."

Says it all really.

Makes a change hearing about a ET where the public body has done every right.

ST - I can see the damage it's going to bring, it's only purpose is to inflame, I question the wiseness of this post.

He's also, apparently, all-knowing and wise (although I'm not entirely sure 'wiseness' is a word. He's used it at least twice now. This would indicate to me a certain level of desperation or panic running underneath the surface, but that's just my opinion)

ST - trans people don't cause harassment

edited to say: I gather he's not all that knowledgeable after all!

Yes, what does he think he's doing right now?