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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another victory! For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers in prisons case

198 replies

TheNoWord · Yesterday 12:04

It’s just been on the news in Scotland. More to follow….

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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StuntNun · Yesterday 13:51

Fantastic news but I still find it hard to believe we live in a country where it’s necessary to take the government to court to get them to obey the law. It’s a crying shame that this is the only way to get humane treatment for women prisoners. Especially when there are so many other issues facing women prisoners that need to be tackled once the males have been removed from the prisons.

Wishesandhorses · Yesterday 13:53

Slightly mollified by this bit:

60] There was also no real dispute that, as a matter of generality, the reasons for sex segregation in prisons are to protect the safety of women and to secure the privacy and dignity of both women and men. That is the principle underpinning rule 126. That principle, and that statutory requirement, are consistent with international standards.

The petitioner’s pleadings and argument drew attention to, among other things, the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, also referred to as the Nelson Mandela Rules, adopted by the UN General Assembly in 2015, and the United Nations Rules for the Treatment of Women Prisoners and Non-custodial Measures for Women Offenders, also referred to as the Bangkok Rules, adopted by the UN General Assembly in 2010......

In the preamble to the Bangkok Rules, reference is made to an acknowledgement by the United Nations General Assembly: “of the fact that violence against women has specific implications for women’s contact with the criminal justice system, as well as their right to be free of victimization while imprisoned. Physical and psychological safety is critical to ensuring human rights and improving outcomes for women offenders […]”.

[61] Segregation by sex does not necessarily give rise to less favourable treatment and, as a consequence, direct discrimination. - my bolding, that's a particularly interesting and useful comment.

BettyBooper · Yesterday 14:05

ditalini · Yesterday 13:15

I don't think this is necessarily a loophole - it reads to me that, should such as situation arise then the SPS might reapply to have the specifics of that single case heard in court.

I would assume that their argument would be along the lines of it being one trans prisoner and to keep them segregated would be detrimental to their mental health therefore they were applying for them to be moved to a female prison where they would not be segregated (!).

However there are other solutions such as keeping them with other male prisoners at high risk of harm themselves, or keeping them with male prisoners who are assessed as being of low risk of causing harm, or moving them to a trans unit elsewhere in the prison estate.

It's not a case of "if this happens then you can move them", although there will be much attempt for it to be read as so in some quarters.

Although I agree to an extent, having anything in a prison setting that essentially says 'there's this thing that you really want and the only way you have the remotest chance of getting it is to adequately demonstrate you are suicidal' is utterly dangerous.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 14:09

They’re really getting going with the frothing I see now, not just on transgenderuk but also r/Scotland, r/politics and r/LabourUK - it always gets more hyperbolic and extreme as they whip each other up.

guinnessguzzler · Yesterday 14:10

Just seen this now. Huge thanks and well done to For Women Scotland on this.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · Yesterday 14:16

Well done again, FWS.
Hard agree that, in a civilised society, the court case should not have been necessary.

CassOle · Yesterday 14:20

That Reddit thread is hitting all the lows and demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of history or reality.

'We are in Nazi territory now.' 🙄

Wishesandhorses · Yesterday 14:26

Also good to see this one tested:

[81] The respondents maintained that it is difficult to envisage in practice an insistence that the requirements of paragraph 26 of Schedule 3 be met on an entirely exclusive basis and that, on a pragmatic basis, there must be room for exceptions. They refer to the example of a mother taking her young son into a female only space, such as a changing room or a toilet, and argue that what is essentially a single-sex (or separate sex) space can be maintained notwithstanding this limited exception, because allowing that exception does not give rise to sex discrimination. This comparison is not apt. The toilet or changing room 38 remains a separate sex service, even if there is an infant boy present. His presence derives from that of his mother. It is not some kind of exception that is a gateway to other exceptions. (my bolding.)

RareGoalsVerge · Yesterday 14:36

IrnBruAndDietCoke · Yesterday 12:39

It is possible that, in an exceptional individual case, in a situation where there is a threat to life through suicide, it may be necessary to consider an argument that accommodation in a prison for the opposite biological sex is necessary and that rule 126 should be disapplied. Whether that could be achieved compatibly with the requirements of the EA 2010 cannot be determined in the abstract.

There’s a loophole here. They’ll all just start ‘attempting’ suicide. They’re very committed to this schtick.

In an exceptional individual case, in a situation where there is a threat to life through suicide, one or more cells in the Male estate can be designated as accommodation "For Women" that can only be occupied by women who happen to have male biological and genetic physical reality. There is no exceptional case which should require vulnerable female prisoners to be co-opted as mental health support workers for the benefit of a male prisoner to their own detriment and against their will. Threatending or attempting suicide unless people cave in to your unreasonable demands is a form of abuse.

Alucard55 · Yesterday 14:41

On the "suicide" thing. If a male prisoner is threatening suicide then surely he needs to go on suicide watch not the women's estate?

Really can't understand this.

rebax · Yesterday 14:45

A lot of interesting arguments from the Scottish Government which found little purchase.

Concerning that the Scottish Human Rights Commission seemed to be arguing for a 'case by case' approach.

EHRC - arguments that the Scottish Government could rely on their interpretation of these rather than UK law failed. However judges left the door open to "if the EHRC decides that transwomen have a right to be in women's spaces, we wouldn't stop them".

MrsOvertonsWindow · Yesterday 14:51

Wishesandhorses · Yesterday 14:26

Also good to see this one tested:

[81] The respondents maintained that it is difficult to envisage in practice an insistence that the requirements of paragraph 26 of Schedule 3 be met on an entirely exclusive basis and that, on a pragmatic basis, there must be room for exceptions. They refer to the example of a mother taking her young son into a female only space, such as a changing room or a toilet, and argue that what is essentially a single-sex (or separate sex) space can be maintained notwithstanding this limited exception, because allowing that exception does not give rise to sex discrimination. This comparison is not apt. The toilet or changing room 38 remains a separate sex service, even if there is an infant boy present. His presence derives from that of his mother. It is not some kind of exception that is a gateway to other exceptions. (my bolding.)

Thanks for highlighting this. It speaks to the lack of knowledge and insight into safeguarding and parenting that these fools keep arguing this.

littlbrowndog · Yesterday 14:55

Yay ♥️♥️well done fws

Wishesandhorses · Yesterday 14:56

From the judgment:

However, in oral submissions made by senior counsel for the respondents, the focus came to be very much more on Article 2 and the need to protect against the risk of suicide.... it was the respondents’ position that the court ought to be concentrating on suicide risk, and, to reinforce that point, it was said that, even if it served to protect only one trans prisoner, a policy with some degree of flexibility would be necessary.....

(if only the 'if it serves to protect only one' bit was EVER extended to women, eh?)

[124] There are, of course, means of protecting trans prisoners’ rights which do not involve accommodation in a prison for the opposite biological sex. I have referred already, at paragraphs [7] and [112], to the various forms of special provision set out in the Prisons Guidance. In this context, it can be understood that there are arrangements made allowing a trans prisoner to “live in their affirmed gender” and that, with those measures in place, the respondents respect that trans prisoner’s Article 8 right to a private life. It is beyond the scope of this judgment to canvass the circumstances in which, for a hypothetical individual, a third space may be required, separate from both the men’s estate and the women’s estate, but that is an option in principle. The practical feasibility of that must be a matter for the first respondents.

[125] A trans prisoner may consider that these measures, even taken at their most extensive, are insufficient to allow for life, to use Baroness Hale’s words, “as fully a man or as fully a woman as the case may be” but there is no case to support an argument that Article 8 entails a right for a trans woman to live in the same place as and in the company of women. It is precisely because of the impact of mixed sex accommodation provision on the privacy and dignity of the would-be fellow prisoners that the restriction in rule 126 exists and that immediately shows that, even if Article 8 rights are engaged, the interference is justified under Article 8(2). Sex segregation is necessary for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights or freedoms of other prisoners. As all parties, and interveners, recognised, the Convention rights, under Articles 2, 3 and 8, of female prisoners are engaged in circumstances in which the respondents operate a process for allocating trans women prisoners to the women’s prison estate. (my bolding)

A trans prisoner cannot live in his or her transgender identity in the abstract. Accommodating a trans woman prisoner in the women’s estate necessarily involves association with women, and their [in context, this refers to women in the women's estate when imprisoned) circumstances are such that they cannot opt out. [seems somewhat at odds with the judge's earlier comment that introducing a man into a women's single sex environment was not necessarily harassment]

[133] It is necessary to recognise the Article 8 rights of female prisoners in the women’s estate, a point emphasised by the SHRC in their submissions.

Long discussion on article 2 - linked to submissions from EHRC and other sources, that provisions in the male estate for transgender prisoners is extensive, that the women's estate holds prisoners equally vulnerable with mental health needs as rife as the male estate and it is reasonable to expect the male estate to manage risk and needs. And again a return to mentioning the possibility of third spaces.

Women got a lot more consideration in the judgment than the short news reported bit shows at all.

Wishesandhorses · Yesterday 15:01

And this bit - the context of the statement about 'in some cases' - it's not as strong as it looks in isolation:

[167] It is conceivable that, in an extreme case involving a threat to life and a potential breach of Article 2, a trans prisoner may be able to argue that the first respondents ought to disapply rule 126 of the 2011 Rules. Whether or not such an argument could be advanced would depend on the specific circumstances of that prisoner and on whether other suicide prevention measures had been tried. Within the present proceedings, it is impossible to say whether that could be done, and whether any such argument would succeed. The disapplication of rule 126 would be more complex than the disregard of the subordinate legislation relating to housing benefit considered in RR. It would involve, among other things, consideration of the Convention rights of other prisoners.

The Equality Act is NOT the only barrier. And might suggest that attempted changes to the EqA would be incompatible with the Convention rights of varied groups. Other People Have Rights Too is the real issue facing activists.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · Yesterday 15:04

Alucard55 · Yesterday 14:41

On the "suicide" thing. If a male prisoner is threatening suicide then surely he needs to go on suicide watch not the women's estate?

Really can't understand this.

Me too. If your common or garden male inmate threatens suicide, does he get plonked into the female estate??

sohard · Yesterday 15:14

So what’s the betting that FWS will have to take ScotGov back to court to get them to actually comply with this ruling?

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 15:14

Absolutely bloody brilliant. Well done those women.

The 'case-by-case argument' has imploded.

I've never understood how a 'case by case' thing was ever going to be applied. What were the criteria for a decision? (A hypothetical question as I know there aren't any...)

singthing · Yesterday 15:49

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 15:14

Absolutely bloody brilliant. Well done those women.

The 'case-by-case argument' has imploded.

I've never understood how a 'case by case' thing was ever going to be applied. What were the criteria for a decision? (A hypothetical question as I know there aren't any...)

I read somewhere that case by case means class-wide decisions like "can any male with a trans identity go into a female prison" - yes or no. Where that decision applies to ALL males with trans identities in that scenario, in one fell swoop.

It does not NOT mean individually deciding whether "Emmet-now-Emily" is enough of a laydee to somehow qualify for a female cellmate; but "Floyd-now-Florence" is not. Obviously that way lies utter madness, but this whole thing is like an episode of Lunatics Live anyway....

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 15:51

singthing · Yesterday 15:49

I read somewhere that case by case means class-wide decisions like "can any male with a trans identity go into a female prison" - yes or no. Where that decision applies to ALL males with trans identities in that scenario, in one fell swoop.

It does not NOT mean individually deciding whether "Emmet-now-Emily" is enough of a laydee to somehow qualify for a female cellmate; but "Floyd-now-Florence" is not. Obviously that way lies utter madness, but this whole thing is like an episode of Lunatics Live anyway....

So “case by case” is actually a blanket policy in all but name. Make it make sense! <weeps>

singthing · Yesterday 15:58

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 15:51

So “case by case” is actually a blanket policy in all but name. Make it make sense! <weeps>

To be clear I am not an expert nor a lawyer, and I can't (annoyingly) remember where I read it either. So don't hold it as gospel. But it does seem to make more logical sense than the second way, so...

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 16:01

CassOle · Yesterday 14:20

That Reddit thread is hitting all the lows and demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of history or reality.

'We are in Nazi territory now.' 🙄

Someone has suggested a petition to proscribe Sex Matters and FWS as “terrorist organisations” - idiotic in itself. The response:

Sudden-Girth3141

20m ago
agreed, though i don't think a petition wouldn't do much.
i think it would need to be presented a lot more officially, with evidence proving their deliberate erosion of our rights, bribery, corruption of politics and donator history

go for it, “Sudden Girth” 🙄

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 16:04

I look forward to seeing evidence of this 'bribery, corruption of politics and donator [sic] history". Knock yourself out, lads.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Yesterday 16:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 16:01

Someone has suggested a petition to proscribe Sex Matters and FWS as “terrorist organisations” - idiotic in itself. The response:

Sudden-Girth3141

20m ago
agreed, though i don't think a petition wouldn't do much.
i think it would need to be presented a lot more officially, with evidence proving their deliberate erosion of our rights, bribery, corruption of politics and donator history

go for it, “Sudden Girth” 🙄

And while we’re at it, can we have a good look at GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Stephen Whittle, and their interesting relationship with NHSE…?

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