Aberdeen teacher complaining about being blocked from teaching LGBT+ to 7 year olds

[poodlemum01]

A primary teacher residing in stonehaven, and seemingly registered with aberdeen council, has posted on the 'scottish primary teaching' facebook group her anger at not being allowed to deliver LGBT+ lessons to her P4 class (which in Scotland will be ages 7-8). She gets support in the comments from John Summers Campbell - the drag queen teacher. Did he not have some kind of legal action / bad press against him at some point? My mind vaguely recalls a tribunal or something....
I'm sure her employer will be delighted at her using her real name, having trans flags on her personal profile, publicly critising them, making the school and SLT pretty much identifiable, allowing other teachers to slag them off and call them bigots. Any Aberdeen residents on this thread?

Nope.

They're not.

They're just NOT.

They're too young to understand the concept of government or legally backed protections.

They are literally told that trans people exist. Same with gays and lesbians, with an onus on 'some families look like this'.

Because they DO.

You can pretend the kids are harmed by it all you like but the reality is they don't care.

We were warned when the lesson was happening in case the kids came home with questions. Mine didn't mention it so I asked if they'd done it that day. His response 'Yeah. Can I have a snack'.

I don't think I need to get him into therapy any time soon.

They are literally told that trans people exist.

I'm curious: what does that even mean? Like, what does your kid think a trans person is?

I love reading so many of your analytical posts @Catiette
They frequently remind me of my lack of patience with all this after so many years trying to restore women's rights and child safeguarding ,with now generations of children and young people suffering so much harm.

As well as my own lack of patience, I've noticed a much greater exasperation from other posters on here as well, likely at the repetitive 'groundhog day' nature of so many arguments.

Thank you for your patient, in depth analysis, teasing out meanings and nuance 😄

Hello,

I am intending to reply to most of the points you’ve previously raised, it just requires a bit more thought for me to collect what I want to say and articulate it. I usually have time in the evening when my children are in bed, but we’re on holiday so they aren’t in bed and all semblance of a normal routine is out of the window. I will respond.

In terms of my last post I think when I said that about bad people coming from all walks of life, I was reflecting more on my experience and realised that this person who was a terrible person didn’t raise alarms for a long time. Family man, ‘good’ teacher - it was more a statement of fact rather than me trying to antagonise. A lot of the time it’s like stream of consciousness, not intended to begin an argument. Another interesting insight into my own mind and manner of expression that I’ll take on board.

I will respond to the other points when I’m able to have a half hour of peace to collect my thoughts without being interrupted.

They are literally told that trans people exist.

That sounds like a very short lesson. Surely they will pad it out a bit to last until break time? Various recommended (and often delivered) lesson plans I’ve come across in England have at least included the Genderbread person resplendent with a full set of stereotypes and a very harmful message. Why are Scottish kids unique in getting the bare minimum?

They're too young to understand the concept of government or legally backed protections.

True. That is why this adult concept should not be introduced to them. They are not designed to be able to cope with the information. At best, kids will not understand and ignore it, at worst, some vulnerable kids will internalise the message or interpret it in such a way that could have a life changing impact.

Out of interest, what is your understanding of the word ‘trans’?

Mine didn't mention it so I asked if they'd done it that day. His response 'Yeah. Can I have a snack'.

Thats a relief. Hopefully it went straight over his head and he’s filed it in ‘grown up stuff I don’t need to care about’. Are there any other topics taught in schools that we don’t expect the kids to understand but could be life changing (in a negative way) if they take the information on board?

Your experience is not necessarily universal.

Not 'reserved', but worth noting that 99% of sexual assault perps are male.

I'm sorry for what happened to you.

Can I ask just what is this deep, intense, all consuming obsession TRAs have with the word 'exist'. No one has ever said people who identify as trans don't 'exist'. They do. Same as the female sex exists. Same as cats exist. Same as roads, and trains, and clouds exist. Same as murderers, rapists, people with diabetes, depression and schizophrenia exist. We don't advocate or promote the last several though. Yes people who identify as trans 'exist', yet there is a difference in acknowledging they exist and promoting it.

You can pretend children are not harmed by told they're born in the wrong body and should change and keep secrets from their parents all you like, but it's not true.

It is not.

It really, really is NOT.

I've been in a lesson with the teacher telling the class (secondary) that there were 72 genders, they are told that trans people have become what they identity with, that we shouldn't use terms like "boys" and "girls" when speaking to classes.
It's definitely not just saying trans people exist.

Okay, so in terms of introducing this in an age-appropriate way, to address one of the points you have made.

I think one of the biggest challenges here is that policy ambitions are often not matched by the training and confidence practitioners receive. It’s relatively easy for governments or organisations to say that schools should promote inclusion and understanding, but much harder to ensure staff feel equipped to navigate complex and sometimes controversial topics in an age-appropriate way.

For younger children, I don’t think this necessarily needs to involve detailed discussions about gender identity or lots of specialist terminology. In my own experience, these conversations often arise naturally through children’s curiosity about the people around them.

For example, I once taught a child whose mum had a female partner. Other children had questions and the child was becoming upset by some of the attention. With parental support, we planned a lesson about diversity, families and the fact that people live in different ways. The focus wasn’t on persuading children to think a certain way, but on helping them understand that differences exist and that everyone deserves respect. I don’t personally have experience of planning curriculum around trans people in general and the age group that I focused on was especially young - so early in their school journey.

I can imagine a similar approach being appropriate when younger children encounter trans people. At that age, it may be as simple as explaining that some people live differently, some people use different names or pronouns, and that we should treat people kindly.

For older children, more detailed discussion becomes possible, but I think this is where practitioner confidence and expertise become particularly important. These are complex issues that attract strong views in wider society. If schools are going to address them, staff need high-quality training and support so that education remains age-appropriate, balanced and responsive to children’s questions rather than becoming either avoidance or advocacy.

Perhaps one solution would be to have specially trained practitioners who can support schools and deliver lessons where appropriate, rather than expecting every teacher to feel equally confident teaching such a sensitive and evolving area. I don’t have all of the answers for this, but for me, perhaps involving skilled people from all sides of the debate to create a balanced curriculum would be optimal. That way all sides of the debate are covered and taught. No one single ‘agenda’ is pushed. This takes time and resources. So perhaps the whole thing should be placed on pause until the appropriate training can take place.

This doesn’t mean I don’t think age appropriate education is possible, I think it is. But I acknowledge that perhaps we aren’t there yet and that forcing practitioners to deliver contentious information without appropriate training isn’t appropriate and more needs to be done to ensure that no children are harmed during these experiences. There is quite often a gap between policy and practice and it is of course right for people to question policy if the infrastructure isn’t there to support its implementation. I think the issue is simpler for younger children, as the language and intent is simpler. It becomes more complex the older children become and this is an area outwith my expertise and so I would look to more experienced people from across the debate with differing perspectives to work together on this for balance.

I will address the other questions later on, I had a spare 15 minutes and now have to return to small children and I just wanted to share my thoughts and say I don’t have all of the answers, just hope that we can find a way to do it. And that, on reflection, perhaps the more complex questions shouldn’t be addressed until we are able to do so safely, in a trauma informed way, so as to mitigate risk.

I hope that makes sense - having to type furiously fast and won’t have the opportunity to edit as I’m needed!

Let's zoom out and look at what this bag of assumptions asserts:

'Remind the children that the class/group is learning about gender stereotypes and about being fair to everyone, and that they can be any kind of girl or boy they want to be. Explain then that there are some people who feel that the sex they were born just doesn’t fit how they feel. '

How can one 'feel' like one's sex is wrong? What will a child take from this?

'Ask if the children have heard the word transgender and introduce the term/definition on the slides and talk through to ensure understanding.

If a person describes themselves as transgender (sometimes people just say trans) they feel that the sex they were born doesn’t match how they feel inside.
So, a transgender woman lives as a woman today, but was born a boy. A transgender man lives as a man today but was born a girl.'

What does it MEAN to 'live as a woman'? What are you telling a child when you tell them that?

This is from the RSHP for primary school children.

rshp.scot/second-level/

Accompanying slide.

This is not presenting this as a view. It's presented as fact, in bold type.

What makes the woman on the left 'a man'? How would a child describe that?

Women can have facial hair. This doesn't make them men.

Women who have had their breasts removed are not men.

This woman is still female, physically and legally. Still a woman. She is a woman who calls herself 'trans'.

Children are being taught activist assertions as fact.

I don’t necessarily agree with the document and I can see why it’s tricky for practitioners to teach, when left to their own devices and left to interpret it themselves. This is why I think that having a working group of researchers/experts from both sides of the debate, who are skilled in this field, would help to create a teachable curriculum that addresses these biases and how to approach them. I am not an expert, so cannot offer much more advice other than to say I hope we find a solution and don’t just blindly stumble on.

As a woman, I have to say that I find it very difficult to articulate what it means to be a ‘woman’. This is perhaps more of an individual thing for me, growing up in a fairly gender neutral household and always feeling outside of the understanding of what it means to be a ‘woman’. So I would also want to see how this is being interpreted and taught as to me it seems again to simplify an experience.

I would go with:

Woman = adult human female.
A woman who likes repairing steam engines is just as much a woman as her friend who likes flower arranging.

Man = adult human male.
A man who likes repairing steam engines is just as much a man as his friend who likes flower arranging.

That's right. The main problem is that schools have "deferred" to self identified "experts" who have been allowed to write policy for schools for years. Their overreach has been so excessive that they've been allowed to inform pastoral care, the curriculum, using (and teaching children that) threats and intimidation are the way to go with in order to enforce trans ideology on an unconsenting society.

Trouble is these so called experts are nothing of the sort. They are totally ignorant of child psychology & development, disinterested in safeguarding, their only experience of education is from when they were at school.

Which is why there's a mish mash of age inappropriate, trans focussed materials in so many schools, parents having to challenge porn soaked / age inappropriate materials etc to the extent that this government (who are not known for ever saying no to transactivists) have finally stepped in to stop gender identity being taught as fact to children, insisting that the curriculum must be age appropriate etc - that's how awful the situation has become in some schools. And it's not all schools - many have very successfully held the line against extreme transactivism despite the challenges.

Another thought, it's interesting that in the OP that teacher's site has a male drag queen teacher who pursued a complaint to a parent's regulatory body about her online posts. A perfect example of the type of man who's dominated this agenda - intolerant, shows no understanding of free speech and how a democratic society operates yet wields immense power over children and attempts to do the same to parents.

As a woman, I have to say that I find it very difficult to articulate what it means to be a ‘woman’. This is perhaps more of an individual thing for me, growing up in a fairly gender neutral household and always feeling outside of the understanding of what it means to be a ‘woman’. So I would also want to see how this is being interpreted and taught as to me it seems again to simplify an experience.

Anyone born female who goes through female puberty is a woman.

No wonder our kids are confused when the biological reality of being a woman is suddenly so mysterious 😂

always feeling outside of the understanding of what it means to be a ‘woman’

Precisely because people talk so much nonsense about it. There's no mystical meaning to be divined by communion with the ineffable feminine. To be a woman is to be an adult female human being. end of. Very simple, even boring, but the only definition that can carry any weight.

There’s a biological reality, yes.

But there’s also something more difficult for me to grasp. Maybe it comes easily to others, but it doesn’t to me. There’s more to identity than biology alone.

I say this as a woman who menstruates, who has given birth to two children, and who has breastfed. Those experiences have undoubtedly shaped my experience of womanhood.

But I still find myself wondering: what does it actually feel like to be a woman beyond the biological realities and life experiences associated with being female?
That’s the part I struggle to articulate. I’m not saying there is no answer, or that everyone feels the same way I do. But I find the concept of an innate “female identity” difficult to define or describe. Perhaps that’s why I don’t feel particularly threatened by the idea of others identifying with womanhood. I don’t experience my own womanhood as something that can easily be reduced to, or protected by, a particular definition of identity.
Maybe I’m searching for meaning where there doesn’t need to be any. I don’t know.

Again, I know this isn’t a universal experience. It’s just my own. But it perhaps explains my lack worldview slightly better.

But I still find myself wondering: what does it actually feel like to be a woman beyond the biological realities and life experiences associated with being female?

It doesn't have to feel like anything. Some people, both men and women, do strongly identify with their sex, but a lot don't, and there's nothing wrong or meaningful to that.

But I find the concept of an innate “female identity” difficult to define or describe.

Maybe simply because it doesn't exist in the first place? Or at least not in every woman, far from it.

The idea that everyone experiences a sense of gender identity is one of the biggest lies of the trans ideology. And indeed, some people fight against it from within the T itself, arguing that they have no sense of identity at all, or that they identify with something outside of the male/female binary entirely. So really, gender identity is whatever you want it to be - and you don't have to want it to be anything in particular, or even to exist at all.

Of course, one of the possible answers to this is that there is no innate female identity which is separate from the physical experience of being born female.

It makes sense to me for there not to be such a thing. There is no other physical phenomenon that some people experience despite not being that thing where we don't recognise that their mind is creating a falsehood. People with anorexia are not fat, people with Cotard's syndrome are not dead.

When I think about the trans experience I find it much easier to understand it as a religious experience. Catholics believe that the host literally turns into the body and blood of Christ during communion. I can accept that they have this belief without me having to share it, or pretend to Catholic friends that I share it. Me not sharing this belief doesn't make them, nor the host, disappear in a puff of logic.

For teaching purposes, this means that the construction used by many teachers when discussing religious faiths can be used "Some people believe...".

There is no 'feel like a women', you can't articulate it because there is nothing to 'identify with.

Women = adult, human, female, so women it is whatever you feel like, just like it is also is whatever any other adult, human, female feels like.

always feeling outside of the understanding of what it means to be a ‘woman’ that's what the activists are playing on because many children growing up feel the same way.

The whole point is GI is a load of made up bollocks, and it should not be taught to school children of any age. It's a adult concept that they can find about when they're adult's. The activists want it taught in schools because they think if they can brainwash people when they're young the can 'normalise' an 'abnormal' behaviour.

There’s a biological reality, yes.
But there’s also something more difficult for me to grasp. Maybe it comes easily to others, but it doesn’t to me. There’s more to identity than biology alone.

Right, fine. But we don't categorise on the basis of some ineffable, indescribable inner feeling. We categorise on the basis of biological sex.

Otherwise, we'd be as well categorising by starsign, or enneagram.

Personal identity and inner feelings can be entertaining or interesting sometimes, but there is no way they can form the basis of societal categories.

Where sex matters, it's biological sex that matters.

Where sex doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.