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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

British Orienteering has peaked!

157 replies

ArabellaScott · 17/06/2026 10:38

https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/news/6799/british_orienteering_transgender_policy

'Entry Classes for female competitors are prefixed by “W” and are restricted to those whose biological sex at birth was female.
An Entry Class prefixed by “M” is unrestricted by sex.
Those whose biological sex at birth was not female are only allowed to enter an Entry Class prefixed by “W” if they declare themselves non-competitive..'

News

https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/news/6799/british_orienteering_transgender_policy

OP posts:
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 17/06/2026 11:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This is just misogyny with extra steps.

Nobody thinks women cannot read maps. The point is that orienteering is a timed physical sport, not a Sudoku puzzle in hiking boots. Running speed, terrain strength, stamina and recovery all matter.

You are the one reducing women’s sport to vibes, feelings and “inclusion”, while treating womanhood as a costume any male can put on if he feels excluded.

Women’s categories do not exist because women are fragile, pure or stupid. They exist because female athletes deserve fair competition against other female athletes.

Sexism is not solved by letting males into women’s prizes, rankings and records. That is just sexism wearing a progressive hat.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 11:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Fabulous post! Please, nobody report this for deletion. It's priceless.

Cioccoholic · 17/06/2026 11:43

My dh was brilliant at orienteering. It’s like the guy has a quantum computer in his head that tells him the right way to go. Like a bird with a homing instinct. He does it entirely instinctively.

My brain simply is not built to navigate or follow maps. Even when I concentrate I can still get lost in a shopping centre I’ve been to dozens of times. Why is it anti-feminist to admit I cannot read maps or find my way?

Anyway I don’t think that’s the point of the thread and fair play to the women who can read maps, they shouldn’t have to compete against men.

Dh did the 100km Oxfam South Downs run a couple of times and I realised he is built of muscle and sinew and tough in ways I can only dream of.

I don’t feel “lesser” just because I’m different. I certainly don’t consider it would be fair to be asked to compete against the natural advantage of biological men.

TheyAreLovelyLovelyPeople · 17/06/2026 11:50

FlowersInDenmark · 17/06/2026 11:18

Yes, I agree. Fun thing is that extending a helping hand to trans women for those same reasons doesn't diminish us. Banning trans women, on the other hand, says women are dumb at maps. Yay!!!

Hello there, thank you for engaging with this thread.

I am hoping you might be able to explain, whilst you are here, how a man becomes a transwoman, I don't understand how it happens and am keen to be educated. Can you help, please? Genuine question, BTW.

DancingNotDrowning · 17/06/2026 11:51

@FlowersInDenmark

The question is not whether orienteering competitions should be divided into male and female categories.

The question is whether a competition that has already chosen to divide competitors by sex should enforce those categories according to its rules.

On that question, the answer is yes

Namingbaba · 17/06/2026 11:52

FlowersInDenmark · 17/06/2026 11:14

I mean, there is no need for male and female categories, except the societal pressure that makes women feel they're dumb at maps which means that a more supportive approach is helpful to overcome that. Which is also helpful for trans women who face transphobia as well as misogyny.

Also I've just finished volunteering at an ultra which was won outright by a woman. She managed, staggeringly, to overcome her Q angle and triumph using all those other bits of psychology and biology that are relevant to longer distances. But no, you're right, the Q angle is literally the only important thing, women suck, we will literally always lose at every single thing, and, did I mention, we're dumb at maps?

Yay feminism.

Sorry just saw a more recent post so editing. Do you think women and men would achieve the same at events at the Olympics if it weren’t for sexism?

powershowerforanhour · 17/06/2026 11:54

GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 11:04

Completely agree. "Men can enter the class but not compete" - what the hell is that?

I used to do a bit of orienteering and IIRC it was quite common for people to be allowed to compete hors concours in a different class (shorter distance with easier terrain) if they were recovering from injury for example. Although I think usually men and women at a certain skill level compete over the same course just on a separate scoreboard, so the only reason to let trans participants be counted in the W classes as non competitive, rather than the M classes as competitive is to make them feel like they are being counted as women. It's a polite fiction but one that I don't think that matters terribly much.

Igneococcus · 17/06/2026 11:55

Every time I think "surely we have heard every stupid argument many times over by now" a new idiot poster turns up and proves me wrong.
For what its worth, in the sport that I played for a few years at semi-professional lever at least one women got life changing injuries because of the inclusion of transwomen. I'm absolutely done with this shit.

powershowerforanhour · 17/06/2026 11:58

FlowersInDenmark · 17/06/2026 11:18

Yes, I agree. Fun thing is that extending a helping hand to trans women for those same reasons doesn't diminish us. Banning trans women, on the other hand, says women are dumb at maps. Yay!!!

Why are younger people banned from the veterans' classes in orienteering? Do the grizzled, experienced, savvy old orienteers get "dumb at reading maps"?

MandyMotherOfBrian · 17/06/2026 11:59

Has there been some sort of clarion call, out to the wilds of the web, in last few days asking for anyone with a bit of free time to pop over to FWR to deliberately misunderstand, misinterpret, misrepresent and generally sealion every bloody post? It's so 2021.
Also, as always, we could all just ignore, ignore, ignore.
That would be entertaining.

SoImAHorseThenTed · 17/06/2026 12:02

Well done to British Orienteering. I’ve orienteered for years, and never noticed any trans women in any of the categories, but it is good to have it clarified that men will not be able to take points, prizes, places and accolades from women.

@FlowersInDenmark I must confess I’ve had to read your posts several times to try and work out what it is you are trying to say. It would seem that you are effectively saying that there is no difference between male and female ability to run at speed, therefore the only reason that women need a separate category in orienteering is because women are worse at reading maps. Now I could write essays on the difference in men and women running over short distances, over long distances and in reading maps. It’s actually a special interest of mine, and I have included articles on women winning ultra events on my endurance/map reading pages.

Some women are capable of equalling and beating men in running events. And it has been shown scientifically that the longer the distance, the more likely women are to be able to run as equals and even superiors. However, there is a huge wall to break through in shorter distances before running and winning in these longer distances begins to take place, and this is why there are so few women competing and winning in these ultra events. It also goes some way to explain why the successful women are so lauded - they have broken through the short distances barriers, usually by sheer bloody mindedness - to become winners. But over shorter distances, due to the general anatomical differences between sexes, men will be faster.

Now, when it comes to map reading, there have been many studies which show there is no sex-based difference in the ability to read and interpret a map, but there are differences in the way women give directions vs men giving directions. This has been interpreted in a number of ways, but the main conclusion drawn is that the differences in map reading and understanding are primarily as a result of nurture, not nature. Ie the way men and boys are encouraged to use maps is different to the way women and girls are encouraged. I can link to these studies if anyone is as map-geeky as I am.

Back to orienteering. I compete in orienteering, and though I am an excellent map reader, I am rubbish at running. So I rarely do well. But put me on a horse, where my ability to move across the ground has now become equal to a man mounted on a similar horse, and I suddenly become far superior. If women are rubbish at maps as a whole, as @FlowersInDenmark asserts, how can this be explained? I am current British champion in mounted orienteering, an equestrian sport in which there are no male/female categories. As in most equestrian disciplines, men and women compete as equals. Admittedly the sport is rather female-heavy in the U.K., but the last two European champions (where there are many more men competing) have also been women.

I read and use maps too in my daily professional life, I have done for nearly 30 years. I have never known another woman in my profession to struggle with this, it is a skill which it is assumed all men and women in the job will be equally capable of.

So to summarise, there is scientific proof that men run faster than women until a very great distance has been reached. Orienteering does not even nearly reach these distances. There is no scientific proof women are worse at reading maps. The sex divisions in orienteering are there because men are faster than women. Even though orienteering is absolutely a navigation sport.

powershowerforanhour · 17/06/2026 12:06

"generally sealion every bloody post? It's so 2021. Also, as always, we could all just ignore, ignore, ignore."

You're right I shouldn't have engaged! Back on the rails...should male times be allowed to be on the W class scoreboards with "N/C" after them just to be kind and make them feel included, or should they have to be on the M scoreboard? I don't have a strong opinion either way.

ArabellaScott · 17/06/2026 12:06

But you missed the fantastic title opportunity.

OP posts:
GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 12:13

@SoImAHorseThenTed interesting post (especially the horse bit) thank you 👏

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/06/2026 12:14

Rubuxus · 17/06/2026 11:12

I would argue even if no competitive advantage then there still is a need because its about representation.

Women may be less likely to orienteer for many reasons.

Yes, this.

In a world where men and women were aleady socially equal¹ we'd only need to worry about the physical differences.

In this world, where there is a whole weighted rucksack of extra social drag women carry that hold us back vs men, there are very good reasons for women-only opportunities outside the purely physical.

However, offering the latter may eventually get us to where we have the former.

¹ By which I mean, accorded the same level of default respect and confidence, so having the same confidence in being heard and taken seriously; given equal respect for being competitive and so having the same confidence to be competitive; facing equal levels of sexualisation, sexual abuse/agression and unwanted sexual advances and so being equally likely to be put off an activity due to the sexualised behaviour of others; being equally judged or not on appearance and to the same standards, so being equally likely to be put off an activity because of judgement on their appearance; having equal domestic and childcare commitments so equal time to train and compete; and so forth

SoImAHorseThenTed · 17/06/2026 12:15

@Cioccoholic it is not anti-feminist to admit you cannot read maps. Map reading is a learned skill - I spend so much time telling people this when I am teaching map reading. It is a learned skill that some people have a natural aptitude for, and are able to pick up more quickly. Just like learning a foreign language. We all know people who seem to be able to just pick up languages easily. But they don’t just wake up one morning and have the new language transplanted into their head, they have had to work at it to assimilate the new language, and it requires regular practice to maintain fluency in the new language. The same applies to map reading - no one wakes up and just knows how to do it. You have to study maps and practice reading them in practical settings in order to become good at it. Weirdly, no one divides language acquisition skills by sex though - it is acknowledged that men and women are equally capable of being able to pick up a new language if they apply themselves to the learning of it and practice of it. As I said earlier, the perceived greater ability of men to read maps is societal, and entirely down the the fact that boys and men are encouraged more to do these things or encounter them in areas that have been traditionally male-dominated in the past, such as scouts, armed forces, professional drivers (taxi, lorry,) etc.

SabrinaThwaite · 17/06/2026 12:23

@SoImAHorseThenTed

I’d be interested to read the studies on map use - I love a good map (and I did win the mapping prize at uni - so it’s not like women really are rubbish at maps).

SwirlyGates · 17/06/2026 12:25

Cailin66 · 17/06/2026 11:22

I turn maps upside down. So the directions makes sense to me. This means I’m very womanly, unlike the womensey men, who never do this, instead they look at a map like a mansy man.

My husband is a lifelong orienteer, and always turns a map to match the direction he is facing.

SoImAHorseThenTed · 17/06/2026 12:28

@FlowersInDenmark
“the aim for actual feminists in orienteering … should be to decrease societal sexism in order to make orienteering a more welcoming environment”

Eh, what? Brilliant word salad to demonstrate you have never been to an orienteering event in your life! I actually cannot think of a more welcoming environment, a sport where males and females aged between 6 and 90+ line up on the same start line, compete over the same course, and have their results all published on the same list. It’s friendly, welcoming and inclusive to everyone.

As another poster, @powershowerforanhour said, any participant is able to compete in any category. The courses are described by colours, and range from short and easy, through longer and easy, shorter and hard, to long and hard. You can pick whichever one you want. Anyone can. It is only when it comes to publishing the division placings later that age and sex categories are looked at. So when I run a Green course, at the end of the day I will be listed in order against everyone who ran in that course - men, women, kids, all ages. It is only when I receive my email a week later from British Orienteering telling me how I am doing against all the other W50 category entries from events up and down the country that it makes any difference.

It’s one of the most inclusive and open sports I have ever taken part in. I’d really encourage anyone who wants to to have a go. We started because I wanted to improve my map reading skills (for the horse orienteering) and we were able to walk round as a family, even though we could enter the same event as competitive runners. And then we felt we’d earned our Sunday roast in the pub afterwards. It did not take long before we all got stuck in, and we’ve all now taken part in large scale events, with both DCs being instrumental in winning a national trophy for our club. But you can do it at any level. DCs don’t come any more, but DH and I regularly pit ourselves against each other. With his better running and my better map reading we often finish a 1hr+ course within seconds of each other. We are very competitive - but only against each other. 🤣

SwirlyGates · 17/06/2026 12:29

GreyskySexRealistsky · 17/06/2026 11:41

Fabulous post! Please, nobody report this for deletion. It's priceless.

Anyway, you all suck. So much.

I'll count that as throwing in the towel. 😂

Lifein2046 · 17/06/2026 12:30

SoImAHorseThenTed · 17/06/2026 12:15

@Cioccoholic it is not anti-feminist to admit you cannot read maps. Map reading is a learned skill - I spend so much time telling people this when I am teaching map reading. It is a learned skill that some people have a natural aptitude for, and are able to pick up more quickly. Just like learning a foreign language. We all know people who seem to be able to just pick up languages easily. But they don’t just wake up one morning and have the new language transplanted into their head, they have had to work at it to assimilate the new language, and it requires regular practice to maintain fluency in the new language. The same applies to map reading - no one wakes up and just knows how to do it. You have to study maps and practice reading them in practical settings in order to become good at it. Weirdly, no one divides language acquisition skills by sex though - it is acknowledged that men and women are equally capable of being able to pick up a new language if they apply themselves to the learning of it and practice of it. As I said earlier, the perceived greater ability of men to read maps is societal, and entirely down the the fact that boys and men are encouraged more to do these things or encounter them in areas that have been traditionally male-dominated in the past, such as scouts, armed forces, professional drivers (taxi, lorry,) etc.

As someone who speaks five languages but can't read a map to save my life, I agree. I was always encouraged and supported with picking up languages, but I don't recall ever being encouraged to read a map apart from a couple of very brief lessons in geography.

When we did orienteering at school, they just gave us a map and expected us to know what to do. I actually wonder what our P.E teachers were getting paid for because they never actually taught us the rules to any sports; they just handed us the correct equipment and expected us to get on with it, but that's a whole different story.

Iwanttobeafraser · 17/06/2026 12:30

And the aim for actual feminists in orienteering (which I don't think describes any of you for various reasons) should be to decrease societal sexism in order to make orienteering a more welcoming environment and possibly eventually just have open events (or not, we can't know until we get to this utopia) NOT to ensure that the segregation is as intense as it possibly can be.

What a bizarre statement. I would welcome any decrease in social mores that make women feel less willing to compete in orienteering (although in real life, I know plenty of women and girls who compete so i've never personally seen that there's a perception that this is a man's sport. if anything, it's the opposite - I've seen men slagging off male orienteerers on the basis that "they can't really run fast enough so they use the map element to convinced everyone it's skill not just speed, because they can't compete with me in the 10km" or whatever).

But no, the main reason I would want a male and female category, split by biological sex, is becuase physically, women are intrinsically less able to have the speed and strength necessary to win against men.

SoImAHorseThenTed · 17/06/2026 12:34

@SabrinaThwaite
there has been a lot of study on this over the years, but these are 2 of the most recently published works.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/rsos/article/11/1/231532/92777/Still-little-evidence-sex-differences-in-spatial#d1e578

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0278262603001301

MagpiePi · 17/06/2026 12:35

Sexism is real and discourages women from getting involved in orienteering. They are more likely to get involved if men aren't bouncing around everywhere. The same is true for trans women.

So the logical conclusion is that if transwomen need their own category so that they won't be bouncing around everywhere and discouraging women who are in the women's category.