Push and pull factors in transitioning

[GCScot]

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

• Women/girls with internalised misogyny

• Gay people with internalised homophobia

• Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact

• Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

• People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)

• People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

Why isn't social contagion mentioned by the Op in group 1? It's been a major factor and acknowledged as such.

By the very act of identifying with something suggests an association with the category in some way. You can't identify with nothing.

So are you suggesting depression & anxiety don't exist because they are unfalsifiable?

I never said they are unfalsifiable. I said they are not directly observable - no, correction, I said that sometimes, depression is not directly observable. However, it becomes blatant once you treat that depression and it recedes, with very visible changes in behaviour and outlook. Same with anxiety.

It is considered invalid reasoning to present a claim and then demand that others disprove it, rather than providing evidence for the assertion yourself.

Indeed! Thus it is invalid reasoning to present a claim that gender identity exists and then demand that others disprove it. By all means, present your evidence for the assertion that gender identity exists.

Plenty of trans people do NOT identify with the supposed average behaviours of men or women. They identify with being trans people, and with that having zero to do with so-called average gender behaviours.

I, for example, am not identifying with nothing. I'm identifying with being a transman, which has nothing to do with identifying with the posited average behaviour of men.

I never said they are unfalsifiable. I said they are not directly observable - no, correction, I said that sometimes, depression is not directly observable.

So too is gender identity.

Indeed! Thus it is invalid reasoning to present a claim that gender identity exists and then demand that others disprove it. By all means, present your evidence for the assertion that gender identity exists.

If self reporting is good enough for mental illness its good enough for gender ID.
Can't have it both ways.

BTW what's your 'evidence' for your claim?

This is incoherent.

Gender identification by its very definition requires an identification with a gender type as in man woman or non binary. There is no 'trans man' gender.

If self reporting is good enough for mental illness its good enough for gender ID.

Except self-reporting is NOT good enough for mental illness. Nobody is ever diagnosed just because they say they have a mental illness. They are diagnosed because they report actual symptoms of a mental illness. But there's no equivalent symptoms of gender identity, so yes, I can have it both ways.

BTW what's your 'evidence' for your claim?

What claim?

They are diagnosed because they report actual symptoms of a mental illness.

How do you know they are telling the truth?

But there's no equivalent symptoms of gender identity,

Observable behaviours like presentation & interests.

First, how the hell would you know whether there is such a thing as a "transman gender" or not? Why would you automatically assume that the "transman gender" is the same as the "man gender"?

Second and far more importantly: what is "gender identification" in the first place? I don't identify with a gender type. I identify with a discrepancy between my physical sex and the way my brain sees my body. There's nothing about gender in there.

How do you know they are telling the truth?

How is that relevant to the discussion? The equivalent question regarding gender identity would be, "How do you know that people claiming a gender identity are telling the truth?", which is not what we were discussing.

Observable behaviours like presentation & interests.

Those behaviours are already "symptoms" of plenty of other things, such as sexuailty or just plain personality. Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?

First, how the hell would you know whether there is such a thing as a "transman gender" or not? Why would you automatically assume that the "transman gender" is the same as the "man gender"?

Because I happen to know the definition of gender & trans isn't it.

Second and far more importantly: what is "gender identification" in the first place? I don't identify with a gender type. I identify with a discrepancy between my physical sex and the way my brain sees my body. There's nothing about gender in there.

Whilst I agree the phenomena you are describing exists, technically the word transgender means identifying with the opposite gender. Now that maybe a flaw in the word usage where people such as yourself aren't identifying with the opposite gender or non binary but are identifying with the opposite sex which relies fully on self reporting as there are no observable behaviours. In any case for trans people who do identify with gender there are.

How do you know they are telling the truth?

How is that relevant to the discussion? The equivalent question regarding gender identity would be, "How do you know that people claiming a gender identity are telling the truth?", which is not what we were discussing.

Its relevant because you are claiming there's no way of proving gender ID & there is with mental illness even tho they both rely on self reporting.

Observable behaviours like presentation & interests.

Those behaviours are already "symptoms" of plenty of other things, such as sexuailty or just plain personality. Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?

What do you mean by "sexuality"?

I always speculated, by reading the thoughts of gender dysphoric people, that there are two aspects to it - a strong physical mis-identification with the body of your sex, and a strong social mis-identification with what society consider the role linked to your sex. Sometimes they coexist, sometimes one causes the other. I'm reading with interest

Because I happen to know the definition of gender & trans isn't it.

What is the definition of gender according to you?

In any case for trans people who do identify with gender there are.

"For people who believe A, then A exists". True, and pointless.

What is the definition of gender according to you?

gender
noun
uk
/ˈdʒen.dər/ us
/ˈdʒen.dɚ/
gender noun (PEOPLE)
Add to word list
B2 [ C or U ]
a group of people in a society who share particular qualities or ways of behaving which that society associates with being male, female, or another identity:

In any case for trans people who do identify with gender there are.
"For people who believe A, then A exists". True, and pointless.

I already pointed to my evidence: Observable behaviour.

Still waiting for yours.

Its relevant because you are claiming there's no way of proving gender ID & there is with mental illness even tho they both rely on self reporting.

A mental illness diagnosis relies on self-reporting of actual, defined, practical symptoms. Gender ID relies on self-reporting of an undefined, internal feeling, which can never be observed. How you can insist on comparing the two mystifies me.

What do you mean by "sexuality"?

Femme gay men. Butch lesbians. For example.

So are you suggesting depression & anxiety don't exist because they are unfalsifiable?
I never said they are unfalsifiable. I said they are not directly observable - no, correction, I said that sometimes, depression is not directly observable. However, it becomes blatant once you treat that depression and it recedes, with very visible changes in behaviour and outlook. Same with anxiety.

So you can't tell if a person is depressed by observing them, but you can tell they have been treated for depression by observing them?

a group of people in a society who share particular qualities or ways of behaving which that society associates with being male, female, or another identity:

"Or another identity": please explain why you reject the existence of transman gender.

I already pointed to my evidence: Observable behaviour.

Observable behaviour which can point to a thousand different things. Not exactly a proof of the existence of anything in particular.

Still waiting for yours.

As you yourself posted: "It is considered invalid reasoning to present a claim and then demand that others disprove it, rather than providing evidence for the assertion yourself." So I don't have to present any evidence.

Sometimes you can't tell that a person is depressed by observing them, yes, because they mask well.

However, if the treatment works, their behaviour and outlook change, and those changes are visible. If there are no such changes, there's cause to worry that the treatment is not working.

A mental illness diagnosis relies on self-reporting of actual, defined, practical symptoms. Gender ID relies on self-reporting of an undefined, internal feeling, which can never be observed. How you can insist on comparing the two mystifies me.

I already told you observed behaviours are the evidence of GI. Still waiting for you to prove your claim can't be evidenced.

Femme gay men. Butch lesbians. For example.

Just to recap, this was relavant to this comment:

Those behaviours are already "symptoms" of plenty of other things, such as sexuailty or just plain personality. Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?

As I mentioned upthread, identity is an individually subjective values /beliefs based choice. A femme natal male or butch natal female could go either way as in identify with being cis or trans. It's up to their belief system whether they define themselves based on gender or sex. That their gender non conformity is part of their sexual orientation or personality doesn't invalidate gender categories.

identity is an individually subjective values /beliefs based choice

Precisely. It's a purely subjective choice, which may or may not be reflected in one's presentation and behaviour. Thus, arguing that one's presentation and behaviour is indicative of one's subjective choice is nonsense.

A femme natal male or butch natal female could go either way as in identify with being cis or trans.

Exactly. Behaviour and presentation do not inform as to gender identity.

You're making my points.

And here we are, explaining away the experience of trans people.

Transplaining?

Is it just me or is Emily spouting utter gibberish?

The idea of trait based class groups would be like renaming my cat as a dog if she slept in a kennel, or fetched a stick.

A trans woman is a man who wants to be a woman. They often observe woman and try to replicate their appearance and behaviour, because its all they can do - all deliberately. They'd cant change sex, so they dismiss sex as relevant.

If there wasn't women coded clothes, women stopped wearing make up, the sexes were treated more similarly, trans couldn't exist. And i dont think people would want to identify as trans.

People are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, not being the opposite sex, or being a women or man.

Its a legal fiction that gives men female id. But again, that doesnt make a man a woman, it just allows him to be treated as one in some situations. Thats not belonging to a group that has that right all of the time.

Sorry to ask. I know what boner is. And tucking. And moisturising. So for the first one, this man gets excited when he puts moisturiser on his face? Is that what it means? And if yes, why?

I get why for the tucking one, well I 🤔 I do , he’s turned himself on by the thought of himself hiding his male parts in tucking, because he's turned on by the thought of himself as female…

For the second one, girls who’ve transitioned, he is talking about biological females who think they are male, and he’s attracted to that, so he’s hetrosexual? Therefore classic AGP?