Push and pull factors in transitioning

[GCScot]

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

• Women/girls with internalised misogyny

• Gay people with internalised homophobia

• Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact

• Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

• People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)

• People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

just about everyone is non-binary if the category is defined as identifying as the sex you were born.

I don’t identify as a woman, I am one but I don’t consider myself conforming to stereotypes that are ‘woman’ stereotypes.

Across all the TRA discourse the concept of 'non binary' is uniquely stupid.

If we are talking about sex, no one is 'non-binary'

If we are talking about gender stereotypes, everyone is 'non binary'

Do people seriously think that there are humans out there who conform to every single sex stereotype there is? And that these humans are the vast majority? Seriously?

Emily, how many genders do you consider there to be? You are defining as I understand it a gender as a cluster of behaviours and fashions that are more typically male than female or more typically female than male in a particular culture? Could you give some examples of behaviours that you'd associate with the male gender, the female gender, and the nonbinary gender or any other genders?

For example being attracted to women is a behaviour that is way more common in men because most people are heterosexual. Is that part of your man-gender set of behaviours?

"Or another identity": please explain why you reject the existence of transman gender.

Because 'trans man gender' is a meaningless term. It doesn't specify what characteristic about trans man you are identifying with.You yourself claimed it could mean identifying with the opposite sex traits rather than their gendered behaviours which trans men also identify with. In other words there could be an association with the psychological or sex traits that the 'trans man gender' doesn't tell you. But I do appreciate the distinction & how 'gender' as its understood broadly doesn't account for trans people like yourselves.

Observable behaviour which can point to a thousand different things. Not exactly a proof of the existence of anything in particular.

If you are going to act in bad faith & pretend there are no obvious behavioural characteristics like presentation & interests that distinguishes men from women then we are done here.

As you yourself posted: "It is considered invalid reasoning to present a claim and then demand that others disprove it, rather than providing evidence for the assertion yourself." So I don't have to present any evidence.

You asserted gender identification as unfalsifiable so still waiting.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Trying to justify rejecting & being abusive to yout own trans children (one example I see here a lot - what the hell is wrong with parents who fo that?!) is a bit different.

What abusive behaviour to trans children are you referring to? What constitutes abuse?

It's not just you. I just scroll through. 🥱

I’ve seen this too in the push factors don’t have to be abuse, looking for escape from their sexed body etc. but also agree with the less dodgy pull factors.

Many of the young trans males I know are autistic, are gamers, sometimes taking on female avatars in their games, feel ‘different’ and live a lot of their lives online, participate heavily in online chat rooms like Discord where they come across type 2 TWs who talk to them about being trans. Or maybe it’s a type 1 trans who is sharing their new found beliefs.

But once the idea is suggested to them, it takes root, becomes a kind of intrusive thought, and they start growing their hair, wearing makeup and using she/her. With rigid, black and white thinking plus entitlement it becomes incredibly difficult to interrupt the belief. They’re not predatory. Just messed up.

And because any theory of mind is weak or absent, they can’t or don’t recognise other’s social cues that are saying ‘you’re male’ ie a distraught woman in a toilet. In their heads, they now have a female gender. Yet, they also reference the male sex, might not disagree they have a male sexed body, and are looking for a female sexed bodied partner. It’s just that, to them, gender is or ought to be more important than sex. They’ve been fed such a load of messed up word salad by the genderists and the AGPs, they completely accept it.

This feels true too ie that The other side only see group 1 and ignore group 2. Until they are honest and acknowledge group 2 exists there will be no meaningful dialog. We acknowledge group 1 but point out the difficulty/impossibility of framing any law that excludes group 2.

If you are going to act in bad faith & pretend there are no obvious behavioural characteristics like presentation & interests that distinguishes men from women then we are done here.

Okay. Give us one such characteristic. Just one.

You asserted gender identification as unfalsifiable so still waiting.

I don't have to prove that something that doesn't exist is unfalsifiable.

Its word salad because he's trying to deflect the real question - why do men want to be women?

Precisely. It's a purely subjective choice, which may or may not be reflected in one's presentation and behaviour. Thus, arguing that one's presentation and behaviour is indicative of one's subjective choice is nonsense.

I said presentation & behaviour can be evidence of being trans not a qualification for being trans. Not all trans people are out of the closet & as such don't express their gender identity.

Exactly. Behaviour and presentation do not inform as to gender identity.

Never said it did. What I said was it is evidence of it because you asked for how this could be done.

Not all trans people are out of the closet & as such don't express their gender identity.

And lots of trans people who are out of the closet don't express the gender stereotypes of the gender identity you think they ought to have.

Never said it did. What I said was it is evidence of it because you asked for how this could be done.

No, that wasn't what I asked. What I asked was, "Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?" You haven't answered that so far.

Okay. Give us one such characteristic. Just one.

Already have presentation.

I don't have to prove that something that doesn't exist is unfalsifiable.

"Evidence of Absence: If you search an area thoroughly and find no evidence of something that should be there, you can conclude it likely doesn't exist. For example, if you thoroughly check a sealed, empty room, you can prove there is no adult elephant inside. 1, 2]"

You could eliminate reasons that prove that personality traits & beliefs influence gender identification….but you can't.

India Willoughby is an Everton fan.

And lots of trans people who are out of the closet don't express the gender stereotypes of the gender identity you think they ought to have.

Gender is a spectrum that isn't limited to 1950's pin up movie stars. Just like women & men, trans women & trans men express their identity on a spectrum.

No, that wasn't what I asked.

Yes you did. That's what triggered our whole mental illness discussion remember?

What I asked was, "Why would you need to posit the existence of such a thing as gender identity in the first place?" You haven't answered that so far.

Because it exists.

Already have presentation.

Except presentation is not enough to distinguish between a man, a butch lesbian, and a transman, for example. So no, it's not an "obvious behavioural characteristics [...] that distinguishes men from women", obviously.

"Evidence of Absence: If you search an area thoroughly and find no evidence of something that should be there, you can conclude it likely doesn't exist. For example, if you thoroughly check a sealed, empty room, you can prove there is no adult elephant inside. "

Precisely. All the evidence you've provided can very easily be attributed to entirely different things. Thus the evidence points to the non-existence of gender identity.

You could eliminate reasons that prove that personality traits & beliefs influence gender identification….but you can't.

You're putting the cart before the horses. You're positing the existence of gender identity in the first place. I'm arguing that nothing influences gender identification because gender identification doesn't exist.

Gender is a spectrum that isn't limited to 1950's pin up movie stars. Just like women & men, trans women & trans men express their identity on a spectrum.

Precisely. Which is why you can't use presentation or other forms of adherence (or lack thereof) to gender stereotypes as evidence of anything.

Because it exists.

Says you. Prove it.

@Seethlaw you’re on fire 🔥 this morning. Am enjoying your systematic logical deconstruction of gender arguments.

Edited to add: unfortunately it’s a lost cause against genderist thinking but I’m still enjoying reading your arguments.

Ha ha! I'm bored and I have too much time on my hands. That's a deadly combination for me :P

And yeah, i know it's a lost cause - as far as those making the arguments go. But I remember my time as a lurker, and what influenced me or not.

Yep 🔥

Identifying 'with' someone or something suggests empathy and fellow feeling, whereas identifying 'as' something or someone is suggestive of a performance or a role.

If men really identified with women they would have more respect and more consideration for the reason we have spaces set aside for female people.

Men identifying as women put themselves, and their feelings, first. Everyone must accommodate them and centre their feelings in everything.

Excellent point.

Bailey's gonna Bailey

Except presentation is not enough to distinguish between a man, a butch lesbian, and a transman, for example. So no, it's not an "obvious behavioural characteristics [...] that distinguishes men from women", obviously.

The point is on average men & women are distinguished by presentation. What happens individually or at the tail end is irrelevant to the category existing AND people identifying with the norm.

Precisely. All the evidence you've provided can very easily be attributed to entirely different things. Thus the evidence points to the non-existence of gender identity.

Yes but you can't eliminate gender identification being the point.

You're putting the cart before the horses. You're positing the existence of gender identity in the first place. I'm arguing that nothing influences gender identification because gender identification doesn't exist.

Well you would need to disprove the scientifically supported findings that hormones & genes influence gendered behaviours & they are shared by the sexes . Of course you are welcome to disprove their findings but I won't hold my breath.

What you are calling a spectrum is just the natural range of human personality, characteristics. We all exist on this 'spectrum'. But sex is not a spectrum. It is binary.

'Gender Identity' only exists in so far that it is a contemporarary framing device for describing the above personality characteristics or preferences.

A framing device is a tool you use to view the world through, and your view is inherently shaped by the viewfinder you use.

I don't think Emily is Bailey, to be honest. Bailey's posts make my brain go fuzzy in a way that Emily's don't.