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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women & Equalities Committee 2.30pm Today, 9th June, Mary-Ann Stephenson Chair at EHRC giving oral evidence

199 replies

TheNoWord · Yesterday 14:03

Work of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) 20026-27 - Oral evidence, Mary-Ann Stephenson, Chair at Equality and Human Rights Commission and John Kirkpatrick, Chief Executive Officer at Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Considering the absolute balloons on this committee, it will be well worth a watch. Only Rosie Duffield and Rebecca Paul have any sense.

You can watch live on Parliament TV from 2.30pm

https://committees.parliament.uk/event/27280/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
selffellatingouroborosofhate · Today 06:38

Hedgehogforshort · Yesterday 23:26

Jumped ahead as was late to this discussion.

first impression was that the make up of this committee has changed and was far more balanced than in the past.

I think that the big take away was that she identified that some MP’s did not distinguish between the law and the code. And offered seminars regarding this. 😂

I especially liked the story of the long term TIM lorry driver personage who was now in a predicament, as was clearly using women's shower facilities at the service stations.

do they have such facilities? cannot say i have ever noticed such provision.

In any case nobody mentioned the predicament of a woman in said mythological facilities.

thankfully Ann mentioned the knotty issue of 50% of the population being female.

I thought the CEO was quite good, and he grabbed the life line offered regarding prisons.

that he did not know about (tsk)

Motorway services do indeed sometimes offer showers for lorry drivers who sleep in their cabs. Yes, the cab has a proper sleeping surface installed.

JustTryingToBeMe · Today 07:51

toyl9876 · Yesterday 21:30

Oh bless you, you are absolutely furious, aren't you? Please take a deep breath

WE ARE ALL absolutely furious at your sense of entitlement. Girls and women have a legal
wright to single sex spaces. That is the law and should be the end of the discussion.

ItsCoolForCats · Today 07:52

The anecdote about the lorry driver no longer being able to use women's facilities (Emily ?) really showed the disconnect between the MPs on the committee and those of us from this board that were watching.

Whilst Rachel Taylor assumed we would all be terribly upset at the thought of Emily being prevented from using the women's showers, I'm sure we all had a pretty good mental picture of what "Emily" looked like and what Emily's attitudes were likely to be.

JustTryingToBeMe · Today 07:56

RatWrangler · Yesterday 21:33

Of course I know that some men will assault other men. But do you really think that a man who has had a ton of surgery to look like Kardashian clone isn't going to be at increased risk? I personally do.

possibly, but if you make one exception where do you stop? The law is the law and it is up to the authorities to police it not up
to women to give up their hard-won rights.

RedToothBrush · Today 08:05

I'd love every MP to be sent the Kavanagh thread. Perhaps it can be made into a TV comic skit. "People have been eyes" (and ears, because Lordy if you have bad eyesight you sure as hell get a second chance the second they speak. It's either the obviously fake baby voice or the booming Brian Blessed tones that give it away.)

Re wards.
The NHS have legal responsibilities to protect the privacy, dignity and safety of all parents. As part of this they are obligated to provide single sex wards. But and there is a but, they are allowed to break this rule in specific circumstances.

This you don't put a transwoman on a women's ward. You redesignate a ward as mixed and put them on that instead of you can not find a single bay or room.

I've had a lengthy discussion with my BIL in the past. He is a senior doctor at an NHS hospital who also is on the executive body. His duty of care is to provide single sex accommodation. However there's a massive caveat to this. He points out that some departments just are too specialist or small to have single sex wards in the first place though they do they best to protect dignity and privacy by how they arrange the ward. In this case a woman can easily end up on what is otherwise a male ward due to who happens to be in one that day. He also pointed out that A&E and intensive care are generally mixed anyway.

He pointed out that, particularly during COVID, they had situations where if there was a single man on a ward and spaces in the female ward they couldn't manage both (staff/financials/infection control reasons) so they had to close a ward and merge as a mixed ward. They are 'not allowed to do this' whilst there simultaneously is no actual significant sanction or penalty for doing. They have to write down the number of times the trust has breeched the single ward directive and then write something up to justify each incident of a breech. But other than that it's pretty much merely inconvenient paperwork and finances and staffing generally are the overriding factor.

So this conversation is really limited by the practicalities of the NHS which is already limited by the fact we have a ward system in the UK. On the ground it will probably make little difference because trans patients are often treated with kit gloves anyway and already given the preferential accommodation for their own dignity. This is really our biggest issue in the UK. Our hospitals are poorly designed in the first place with the convention towards communal areas. It's much more typical elsewhere in Europe and the US to have private rooms. The argument here is always that this is lonely or unsafe because staff can't keep an eye on multiple patients all at once. Somehow these other countries maintain comparable if not better safety records so I suspect there may be some issues with NHS staffing and funding generally...

So in many respects the whole debate over hospitals and single sex wards is a bit of a misnomer in the context of trans patients. The real conversation here is why the privacy and dignity of patients of both sexes is routinely not remotely considered by the NHS because they don't seem it a priority in the first place. There needs to be conversations at government level about when we build new hospitals there are legal requirements at the planning stage to make hospitals fit for purpose and in the 21st Century so we can phase out the problems regarding privacy and dignity full stop. This isn't even on the radar of most. Certainly if you asked an MP about the issue they unsurprisingly, given the standard on display at that committee) wouldn't be able to hold a meaningful or accurate conversation about the topic.

I don't see my BIL often but over the years he's let slip a few of these type of eye popping issues within the NHS. It highlights just how much they are creaking at the seems and hanging on by their fingernails generally. Single sex wards are way down the list of his concerns. And we wonder why there's so many sexual assaults in hospitals....

Datun · Today 08:24

I suspect if it was men getting routinely assaulted, including surgeons whilst actually carrying out operations, it would become much more of a priority.

teawamutu · Today 08:30

toyl9876 · Yesterday 21:30

Oh bless you, you are absolutely furious, aren't you? Please take a deep breath

She's laughing at you, mate, not offended. We've seen it all before, and you defaulted to Michael Winner-esque 'calm down dear' at precisely the point male scolders here always do.

Notanorthener · Today 08:35

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Today 06:38

Motorway services do indeed sometimes offer showers for lorry drivers who sleep in their cabs. Yes, the cab has a proper sleeping surface installed.

This was such a none point though because the showers at service stations are in individual lockable rooms, often only accessible with a key and/or located in the designated HGV area. They aren’t open plan showers with gaps and skimpy curtains. They are like unisex disabled toilets.

These MPs are so gullible.

teawamutu · Today 08:36

teawamutu · Today 08:30

She's laughing at you, mate, not offended. We've seen it all before, and you defaulted to Michael Winner-esque 'calm down dear' at precisely the point male scolders here always do.

<registers username> he's laughing at you, rather. With profound apologies to Single for the accidental missexing, but trusting that this will be a useful demo of how people whose sense of self-worth doesn't depend on others playing along react.

ItsCoolForCats · Today 08:42

Notanorthener · Today 08:35

This was such a none point though because the showers at service stations are in individual lockable rooms, often only accessible with a key and/or located in the designated HGV area. They aren’t open plan showers with gaps and skimpy curtains. They are like unisex disabled toilets.

These MPs are so gullible.

These MPs are completely out of touch. The general public do not think it's an egregious breach of someone's human rights to have to use a unisex facility. So they come out with these ridiculous stories of sad lorry drivers being unable to shower, or about a trans refugee who has wet himself three times in the space of a few weeks because of the EHRC guidance.

teawamutu · Today 08:46

ItsCoolForCats · Today 08:42

These MPs are completely out of touch. The general public do not think it's an egregious breach of someone's human rights to have to use a unisex facility. So they come out with these ridiculous stories of sad lorry drivers being unable to shower, or about a trans refugee who has wet himself three times in the space of a few weeks because of the EHRC guidance.

100%. Many people (not going to say most) would feel somewhat uncomfortable with telling a man in a dress to use the men's, but if there's unisex available then they'll certainly not see it as a breach of human rights that the Ladies is for actual women only.

Cantunseeit · Today 08:49

@RedToothBrush all of what you say is correct but worth noting that putting a trans patient on the single sex ward aligning with their gender identity does not constitute a breach of the NHS same sex ward rules and would not be reported as such. Doing this (and creating a de facto mixed sex ward) IS the NHS policy.

Our audit sets it all out. Only about 5% of trusts are honest about this in terms of what they put on their website (even then the average person would not interpret “single gender” accommodation as mixed sex - which it could well be). The other 95% lie and say it will be single sex when their policies say it won’t

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Today 09:03

teawamutu · Today 08:36

<registers username> he's laughing at you, rather. With profound apologies to Single for the accidental missexing, but trusting that this will be a useful demo of how people whose sense of self-worth doesn't depend on others playing along react.

I can't believe you practiced actual genocide on me.

#fuming

Datun · Today 09:34

teawamutu · Today 08:30

She's laughing at you, mate, not offended. We've seen it all before, and you defaulted to Michael Winner-esque 'calm down dear' at precisely the point male scolders here always do.

They're such clones of each other. And none of them seem to realise it. They don't comprehend that they are just the latest in a massively long line of men all behaving in exactly the same way.

murasaki · Today 09:41

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Today 09:03

I can't believe you practiced actual genocide on me.

#fuming

😂

#sadtimes

Babyboomtastic · Today 10:10

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Today 06:30

Not great for teenage boys and girls in the same room

Safeguarding fail.

In this case, not so much given the seriousness of the ward, the fact that no one was capable of leaving their beds, most were too ill to talk much, and there was 2 nurses at all times (pluss HA's) for 6 kids, I think it was fine. Not ideal, but not practical to do much else.

Dandelionsalad · Today 10:31

Not RTFT but how can the NHS seriously say they can’t tell men from women without realising the serious implications this has for patient care? I don’t mean beds and making women unsafe etc, I mean medical treatment, test ranges, drug doses, physiology?

PrettyDamnCosmic · Today 10:31

toyl9876 · Yesterday 22:00

I did frame the original question that way, but some posters have suggested alternative provision in the first place is unnecessary

Alternative provision is unnecessary. In line with standard NHS practise you will be cared for in the corridor. Corridors are mixed sex.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 10:34

PrettyDamnCosmic · Today 10:31

Alternative provision is unnecessary. In line with standard NHS practise you will be cared for in the corridor. Corridors are mixed sex.

That was my first thought, if he won't go in a male ward he can go on a trolley in the corridor, the NHS are good at doing that. 😂

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 12:13

Sarah Owen, the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee said on her bluesky accout two hours ago:

"I have signed the fatal motion on the code of practice. The answers to the questions I raised below - and to those from other committee members - fell far short of anything workable, just or fair'

A fatal motion is a rare parliamentary procedure used in the UK House of Lords and House of Commons to block proposed secondary legislation (such as statutory instruments or regulations). If passed, it "kills" the proposed legislation entirely, forcing the government to start the process over if they want to introduce it again

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 12:17

I have to assume this 'fatal motion' is an attempt to thwart the legislation, and reveals a desperate and ignorant attempt to mis-use parliamentary process.

These MPs are immune to reason or any sense of fairness at all.

RedToothBrush · Today 12:21

Cantunseeit · Today 08:49

@RedToothBrush all of what you say is correct but worth noting that putting a trans patient on the single sex ward aligning with their gender identity does not constitute a breach of the NHS same sex ward rules and would not be reported as such. Doing this (and creating a de facto mixed sex ward) IS the NHS policy.

Our audit sets it all out. Only about 5% of trusts are honest about this in terms of what they put on their website (even then the average person would not interpret “single gender” accommodation as mixed sex - which it could well be). The other 95% lie and say it will be single sex when their policies say it won’t

This is really what campaigners should be focused on and drill down on rather than trans in this particular scenario if I'm honest. The trans issue merely highlights the problem that despite political declarations of commitment to and directives on this matter by several parties over a period of years none of them have actually DONE anything to back up this commitment. There's absolutely no substance to the issue of safeguarding by sex and with regards to privacy and dignity on hospital ward for ANYONE - be they male, female or trans. And therein lies the issue zero political will to take the matter seriously and make meaningful change.

ItsCoolForCats · Today 12:25

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 12:13

Sarah Owen, the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee said on her bluesky accout two hours ago:

"I have signed the fatal motion on the code of practice. The answers to the questions I raised below - and to those from other committee members - fell far short of anything workable, just or fair'

A fatal motion is a rare parliamentary procedure used in the UK House of Lords and House of Commons to block proposed secondary legislation (such as statutory instruments or regulations). If passed, it "kills" the proposed legislation entirely, forcing the government to start the process over if they want to introduce it again

Edited

They are in a parallel universe. Mary Ann Stephenson answered clearly and coherently on what the law is. However, the TRA MPs on the committee closed their ears to any answer they didn't want to hear. It wouldn't have mattered what MAS said. They are a lost cause.

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