Women & Equalities Committee 2.30pm Today, 9th June, Mary-Ann Stephenson Chair at EHRC giving oral evidence

[TheNoWord]

Work of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) 20026-27 - Oral evidence, Mary-Ann Stephenson, Chair at Equality and Human Rights Commission and John Kirkpatrick, Chief Executive Officer at Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Considering the absolute balloons on this committee, it will be well worth a watch. Only Rosie Duffield and Rebecca Paul have any sense.

You can watch live on Parliament TV from 2.30pm

https://committees.parliament.uk/event/27280/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

Join.the.club.

You can use whatever language you like. As can I. As a data manager inaccuracy and imprecision on terms leads to chaos and poor decision making. Trans-identified male and the always forgotten equivalent trans-identified female allows all decision makers to be totally clear who they are dealing with. When the consideration is single sex spaces, for toilets, changing rooms, sports, etc, this is a necessity. I correct any party who ever uses waffly language.

Because the EHRC say it could be? Afaik it’s in the draft code

That is a fantastic X thread. Best laugh I've had all week.😂
I think that the shockingly low standard of the MPs on that committee (RP and RD excepted) shows how little women are valued by our representatives.

As are women. The prejudice about the idea that women are entitled to privacy and safety when vulnerable. The endless whining expecting women to find a solution to a problem imposed on women by men.

And talking about ignorance - the shameful ignorance showcased by too many MPs about the law, safeguarding and women's rights. Dennis Kavanagh's X post upthread nailed it. He really made me laugh:

x.com/jebadoo2/status/2064415765986427208?s=46

How do you know how vulnerable women would feel about you in a bed next to hers when she is receieving intimate care, for example?

Exactly, it wouldn't be if no men are allowed. Even the ones who prefer to think of themselves as not men. The comparator is men, not women. No discrimination there.

You are trying to use extreme examples in order to negate the general principle of the ruling.

Nonsense. You'd be treated the same as any other man, which is what any comparator would be.

If you can be accommodated in a single room and it's appropriate to do so, to support your mental health, then great. If not, the hospital will have to consider the best way to support all it's male patients (which includes you) on the mens ward.

I'll ask again, why do you think your discomfort deserves special treatment that others with discomfort don't get? And I'm not interested in 'my discomfort is worse', because you are in no position to judge the level of discomfort someone else has.

I think this is key. The reality is that those on the TRA side just lack the intellectual chops to make changes that actually stand up to any academic or legal scrutiny.

If they tried to change the law, the first thing they would have to do is define a trans person. That alone will get them into trouble on Reddit.

Why? What would you be concerned about?

By definition, trans people do not believe their physical sex is the seat of their identity as a "woman" or "man".

So why does it matter what sex you are accomodated with? Since you aren't less of a woman in your own eyes just because your body is male, why should being with other male bodied people be an issue for your womanhood?

If it's the sign on the door not saying "woman" that's the problem, it's a simple fix to change the sign to say "male people of all genders" or even "male men and women".

Who was it who said to abused women, reframe your trauma. Off you go. Reframe.

No it doesn't, refusing to treat someone because they're 'trans' would be discrimination but refusing to put a man who identifies as a women on a female only ward isn't.

A patient refusing to be placed on on the ward that corresponds with their sex can make that choice, it's up to them, but it's not up to the hospital to find something that they would accept, it wouldn't be discrimination if they didn't offer them an alternative. It's a hospital not a 5 star resort.

How about very effeminate gay men, particularly younger ones? Surely they will be at risk too? Where are you proposing to house them?

On a ward for their biological sex. It is not women’s responsibility to police the (appalling) behaviour of (some) men. Women have the same rights as men, sadly something than men seem to have forgotten.

I would feel distressed in a male ward. It’s not emotional blackmail, just how I feel

Given that's how women feel, where is your empathy? Your distress is less than women's because we have the reality of physical threats.

In a hospital ward you will be without makeup or female clothes so very likely to look male. Pull the curtain around your bed and focus on getting well. Sorted.

There is no need for the drama or demands for validation. A male ward is also likely to manage your medical issues more effectively, given you are male.

Loved Dennis Kavanagh summary. His description of MAS being an exasperated primary school teacher was perfect

I don't think there's any question of a person stating a trans identity being 'forced' onto their sexed ward, the concern for trans identified people is much, much higher and deeply embedded into the NHS and government than it is for women. Solutions will be found. Funding will be there. Sympathy will be there. Men can rely on that so much more than women can.

What cannot happen - and is really the bottom line of what is being sought in all this whataboutery on the guidance by MPs - is that when it's complicated enough women's rights can be subordinated to those of men.

BUT ,there are a few who do look like real women, at least without paying close attention to details

I think you may be fooled by filters. I don't imagine any man can look like a women when in hospital without makeup. Their height, hands, voice and body parts always shout man. It's also important men are treated medically as men because observations are different for men and women.

I think your response might be peak Mumsnet. It is staggeringly cruel and dishonest.

You don’t care about practical solutions or dignity. I’m getting the impression cruelty is the point. Why do you think we shouldn’t have an alternative space?

That was a good thread by Dennis.

This is women's rights forum where women are going to be focused on the interests and needs of women, and the many threats to their needs and rights, and the fact that no one cares about this really. Certainly not the NHS or elected reps.

Coming here asking those women to find sympathy, solutions and to worry about the dignity of those who have expressed absolutely no concern or care to them - when they have suffered for years things that are now being spoken of in utter horror that a man might experience them - is probably a bit self defeating.

Sir you could not touch my nerves if you tried :D

Though if you could keep your ball bag out of ladies hospital wards that would be nice.

You don’t care about practical solutions or dignity.

Practical solutions and your dignity are your lookout. Not women's problems to fix.

I’m getting the impression cruelty is the point.

So much irony here, I wouldn't know where to start. Cruel is as cruel does. Direct your incredulity at the activists. Not women's problem to fix.

Why do you think we shouldn’t have an alternative space?

Campaign and fundraise for them yourselves (and, fix the NHS while you're at it, why don't you?). Not women's problem to fix.

Why do you think we shouldn’t have an alternative space?

Because its not always possible and other people might have priority in cases of infection control or other medically critical issues.

I'm not sure if you have been in hospital but most people are focussed on getting better and most people want privacy so use the curtains. Toilets are usually single occupancy so not an issue.

There has to realism..if no single room available then what's the answer? It isn't to put men in with women as that causes maximum distress to typically 5 women (on a 6 bed ward). What's your answer if no single room available?