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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article on "arguing with a TERF"

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 13:18

I love to keep up with the other side, so here's a lot of words just to say "it's complicated." meanwhile he ignores the obvious answer to his own question.

www.fasttrackfemme.com/p/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-with

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Theunchosenone · 28/06/2026 12:13

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 12:11

Yep it will solve all ills so the men who want to be women will be really safe in there. Job done.

Exactly. It’ll be good for everyone. @MedicalConsensus you have a mission 😀

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 12:30

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 11:56

I found it went in waves tiny baby fine, screaming wriggler not so much, then compliant in early toddlerhood, then less so then OK again.

It a bit like do you leave them in the car when paying for petrol? Yes, except the bit when they figured out how to escape from the car seat but were too young to be bribed to stay in it/ the car.

I cannot imagine how I would have changed a pad while holding a baby. And yes, I had to do this in a public toilet with the pram stuck in the door.

Kucinghitam · 28/06/2026 12:56

This whole thread is just a big demonstration of how so many men will not accept a "no" from women.

(And probably find it even more enjoyable to bat away the protests of unwilling women, than if we just obediently capitulated with empty Stepford smiles).

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 12:56

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 12:30

I cannot imagine how I would have changed a pad while holding a baby. And yes, I had to do this in a public toilet with the pram stuck in the door.

I feel your pain - I had a couple of miscarriages when no. 1 was small, fortunately I wasn't out and about when they happened as god knows how I would have manged.

At least with the current set up if I 'just' needed a wee and the DC was in compliant mood I could leave the pram but not the baby or wedge the pram in the door if they weren't.

We say 'the shelf is too high can we have it a bit lower?'

The men say 'it's fine, we can reach'.

We say 'yeah but we can't'

They say 'wear heels you'll be able to reach and we'd fancy you more'.

Just listen to women and our needs and lower the shelf so everyone can reach.

Why is it so bloody hard to consider our needs?

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 13:03

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 12:56

I feel your pain - I had a couple of miscarriages when no. 1 was small, fortunately I wasn't out and about when they happened as god knows how I would have manged.

At least with the current set up if I 'just' needed a wee and the DC was in compliant mood I could leave the pram but not the baby or wedge the pram in the door if they weren't.

We say 'the shelf is too high can we have it a bit lower?'

The men say 'it's fine, we can reach'.

We say 'yeah but we can't'

They say 'wear heels you'll be able to reach and we'd fancy you more'.

Just listen to women and our needs and lower the shelf so everyone can reach.

Why is it so bloody hard to consider our needs?

Flowers
Shedmistress · 28/06/2026 13:19

Portland, Oregon? The home of the Trantifa mentalists? That Portland?

Also, dude, most women have held the doors semi closed or a coat up at the door whilst other women have done pad changing or clothing changes or any numerous things with a pram half in half out of the cubicle and stopped other people from walking in on that end of the public toilet and because the other users were also women, they totally knew what was going on. We've also semi looked after little girls going in, after their dads stopped at the door and asked us to just keep an eye on them, making sure they got in ok, waited til they finished, kept an eye on them whilst they washed their hands and escorted them back outside.

You have no fucking clue, none of your technical bullshit will replace other women looking after each other in public toilets or changing rooms.

Just stay away from women and girls.

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 13:19

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 12:56

I feel your pain - I had a couple of miscarriages when no. 1 was small, fortunately I wasn't out and about when they happened as god knows how I would have manged.

At least with the current set up if I 'just' needed a wee and the DC was in compliant mood I could leave the pram but not the baby or wedge the pram in the door if they weren't.

We say 'the shelf is too high can we have it a bit lower?'

The men say 'it's fine, we can reach'.

We say 'yeah but we can't'

They say 'wear heels you'll be able to reach and we'd fancy you more'.

Just listen to women and our needs and lower the shelf so everyone can reach.

Why is it so bloody hard to consider our needs?

It is something that those people who simply declare the answer is these miracle toilets forget. The messy practicalities of the lives of female people that don’t fit into cubicles.

Apparently, it doesn’t matter because another space can be magicked out of the air to fulfil the needs. Rather than those declaring this miracle solution gaining some modicum of understanding about the full scope of what female toilet usage entails and why that space they dismiss is important.

And why? Because a group of male people reject the provision provided for them.

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/06/2026 13:29

MedicalConsensus · 28/06/2026 10:59

@Keeptoiletssafe

First, the researcher's scientifically proven solution to "fecal plumes" was not to install gapped doors or move sinks outside. It was simply that hospital toilets should have lids, which should be closed before you flush.

Your claim about door handles being the primary disease vector is challenged by the article, which states that floors and high surfaces yielded higher levels of aerobic bacteria and fungi than hand-touch sites.
The researcher theorized this is likely because hand-touch sites are cleaned more thoroughly than other surfaces.

Second, the study stated that every type of toilet in the three hospitals received the same cleaning every day.
If a universal toilet gets twice the foot traffic (because it is available to 100% of the population) but receives the exact same cleaning frequency as a segregated one, it will logically be dirtier. That is a management and scheduling failure, not a structural design flaw.

For your architectural points:

Door damage from mop water:
Modern commercial and universal cubicles use solid-grade laminate or phenolic resins, not porous domestic wood.
They do not expand or jam. Furthermore, you do not need a 12-inch visual gap to drain a floor.
A standard undercut of a few millimeters is standard for airflow and drainage while maintaining privacy.

Occupancy and fire doors:
Commercial universal doors use vacant/engaged indicator deadbolts.
You don't need a door to rest open to know it's empty.

Ventilation:
Mechanical extraction (HVAC) is already a mandatory building control regulation for commercial bathrooms without windows, regardless of whether the stalls have gaps or not.

Lastly, this design is cheaper to build by combining the separate work needing to be done on two separate rooms into one (like combining the plumbing) and the technology pays itself back over time.

Think about this practically.

The article was one of many. I thought you may like the pathogens article. I have condensed a lot of information into one handy post for you.

Good luck with getting lids on public toilets, and then getting people to shut them. Perhaps very quickly shutting automated lids are the answer for you? The problem is you need the gap between the lid and toilet bowl to be closed too. Else the pressure shoots pathogens out the sides and front. There’s some displays of that too if you research.

The door handle problem is a problem when you look at places like schools. A toilet cleaning company, at best, will come in once a day after the children go home. Do you think they have the cleaning regime of a hospital?

Again re mechanical ventilation - this is due to retrofitting universal toilets - you are not going to start creating loads of little windows and neither are these toilets likely to be against an outside wall if they are next to a main thoroughfare.

It is rare that mechanical ventilation is as good - there’s a lot of studies after covid. Look them up.

The door problem doesn’t solve the real life problems of when someone has collapsed. This is particularly tragic in a hospital where it could have been prevented but I have evidence of people dying of cardiac arrests, overdoses and suicide etc, (both of patients and staff in hospitals and doctors practices) as well as assaults in enclosed designs.

Who said anything about a 12 inch gap? You didn’t read my earlier post discussing the differences. In this country the standard is 15cm. A few millimetres isn’t enough. In English schools they based in on 5mm, the standard deemed necessary to prevent a boy using his phone camera on girls, but this doesn’t give enough ventilation or space for a mop or visual supervision in case of emergencies.

One of the reason for bigger door gaps in American is to accommodate people’s feet who are in wheelchairs. We don’t do this in this country. We have private, accessible toilets which are much bigger. This means mums and dads with pushchairs have a problem. They either have to leave the pushchair outside or use the accessible. What would be great is if new builds or refurbishments in large venues had a new design of accessible within the single sex suite as I have suggested before. This would tick many people’s needs.

At least people have been saved your plastic chemical loo. Can you see how much regulation and thought there is now and how that was a bit of an insult as a solution?

I will give you some tips because you actually seem invested in this. Look at local newspaper websites and search for toilet terms. They usually more useful at a more individual level. Look at why they closed or why people died in them or got assaulted. The difficult bit is to workout the layout and design. Sometimes police and coroner reports are useful. Then maybe do freedom of information (or USA/Canada equivalent wherever you are) if you can, to get some more statistics. Then work it backwards as to how you could prevent bad outcomes in toilets. I have a 90+ page report that does similar with real life incidents based on the last few years in this country, with a few international examples thrown in to show the problems worldwide. Some of that info I have given you here.

What you end up with is single sex toilets, with door gaps, in a single sex washroom. Frustrating if you want to be innovative but there’s a reason most countries in the world settled on a variation of this design. It’s safest, healthiest and the most economical.

There’s an excellent book called The Big Necessity that focuses on sanitation and how important it is to have it. Someone on here recommended it to me. It’s good you have now started thinking about toilets in terms of sanitation rather than a political statement. Toilets are misused for all sorts of things but really what everyone needs is a toilet that is clean and safe.

*‘Anthropologists and sociologists should be infesting public toilets. There’s nothing else in human society quite like them. Not in society, not quite out of it. Needed but rarely demanded. A place where all sorts of human needs and habitats intersect: fear, disgust, conversation, grooming, sex. It’s an
ambiguous space that is not quite in the public eye, though the public uses it. A place of refuge and sociability: of necessity and criminality.’ *
Rose George, ‘The Big Necessity’ (2008)

What’s changed is the ‘demanded’. People suddenly are very invested in toilets. Hopefully, a good thing to come out of this is that provision is looked at as the necessity it is.

AngleofRepose · 28/06/2026 13:46

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 13:19

It is something that those people who simply declare the answer is these miracle toilets forget. The messy practicalities of the lives of female people that don’t fit into cubicles.

Apparently, it doesn’t matter because another space can be magicked out of the air to fulfil the needs. Rather than those declaring this miracle solution gaining some modicum of understanding about the full scope of what female toilet usage entails and why that space they dismiss is important.

And why? Because a group of male people reject the provision provided for them.

The messy practicalities of the lives of female people that don’t fit into cubicles.

I imagine there are plenty of men who would like to stick women in cubicles and just leave them there. What was the toilet leash except a box to keep women in, so you'd control where they went, how long they'd be gone, and you'd always know exactly where they were if you "needed" them?

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/06/2026 14:12

Shedmistress · 28/06/2026 13:19

Portland, Oregon? The home of the Trantifa mentalists? That Portland?

Also, dude, most women have held the doors semi closed or a coat up at the door whilst other women have done pad changing or clothing changes or any numerous things with a pram half in half out of the cubicle and stopped other people from walking in on that end of the public toilet and because the other users were also women, they totally knew what was going on. We've also semi looked after little girls going in, after their dads stopped at the door and asked us to just keep an eye on them, making sure they got in ok, waited til they finished, kept an eye on them whilst they washed their hands and escorted them back outside.

You have no fucking clue, none of your technical bullshit will replace other women looking after each other in public toilets or changing rooms.

Just stay away from women and girls.

Edited

On the other hand, this is the mixed sex, safer Portland loo I was talking about, that is designed to prevent prostitution and other misuse. You can literally pressure hose it down for hygiene.

Not a fan of the voyeurism potential though. Like most women I assume, I would feeling uncomfortable.

https://portlandloo.com

Also, little known niche safety problem. Metal toilets and walls are great for washing down but have caused death by electrocution. You need to be extra careful to make sure you are using the correct electrics around them.

Prefabricated Restrooms: Customizable Solutions for Public Spaces

The Portland Loo® is the leading public restroom solution. We are public restroom manufacturers focused on durability, safety, and easy maintenance for urban spaces worldwide.

https://portlandloo.com

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 14:26

This past week, I used at least two of the ‘self cleaning’ style mixed sex toilets in France. They were disgusting. Obviously the organisation who put them in decided that no additional cleaning was necessary. I have rarely been in any more disgustingly filthy toilet.

Let’s not forget that many French road services toilets don’t have lids to close or even seats. You sit on the ceramic rim.

But apparently, these magic universal toilets are going to appear everywhere and provide female people anything they need.

Why? To allow a group a male people to reject the single sex provision provided for their sex class and to enable them to not have to face the material reality of them being male people.

Still no benefit that I can see to female people. No matter how reasonable the poster wishes to seem in presenting mixed sex cubicles as being a solution.

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 14:39

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 14:26

This past week, I used at least two of the ‘self cleaning’ style mixed sex toilets in France. They were disgusting. Obviously the organisation who put them in decided that no additional cleaning was necessary. I have rarely been in any more disgustingly filthy toilet.

Let’s not forget that many French road services toilets don’t have lids to close or even seats. You sit on the ceramic rim.

But apparently, these magic universal toilets are going to appear everywhere and provide female people anything they need.

Why? To allow a group a male people to reject the single sex provision provided for their sex class and to enable them to not have to face the material reality of them being male people.

Still no benefit that I can see to female people. No matter how reasonable the poster wishes to seem in presenting mixed sex cubicles as being a solution.

And the very people these mixed sex loos are supposed to benefit don't want them anyway. They want to be in the ladies so we can be pawns in their game.

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/06/2026 14:45

I have often complained I am a TERT. Tired of Explaining the Reality of Toilets.

I apologise for making others terts too, but it’s extremely difficult to shut up when you have evidence contrary to these ‘wonderful’ ‘inclusive’ toilets. The obvious answer is just NO but I like to explain the whys and hows.

I would like to know what Reddit thinks of being gifted a lgbt+ coloured portaloo especially for them before, thankfully, we get to 1000 posts.

AngleofRepose · 28/06/2026 14:50

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/06/2026 14:45

I have often complained I am a TERT. Tired of Explaining the Reality of Toilets.

I apologise for making others terts too, but it’s extremely difficult to shut up when you have evidence contrary to these ‘wonderful’ ‘inclusive’ toilets. The obvious answer is just NO but I like to explain the whys and hows.

I would like to know what Reddit thinks of being gifted a lgbt+ coloured portaloo especially for them before, thankfully, we get to 1000 posts.

I guarantee someone on Reddit will mention "segregation" at some point.

ps. Please don't stop being a TERT. I know it's tiring, but we are all learning so much! 👏

DeanElderberry · 28/06/2026 15:02

After his homily at Mass, which was about learning from the good example of others, our priest invited us to pray (silently, privately) for someone we'd been inspired by, and then, together, we said the guardian angel prayer for them.

Just an explanation, @Keeptoiletssafe, if you suddenly sensed a protective and supportive force, that's why.

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/06/2026 15:05

❤️

BettyBooper · 28/06/2026 15:05

DeanElderberry · 28/06/2026 15:02

After his homily at Mass, which was about learning from the good example of others, our priest invited us to pray (silently, privately) for someone we'd been inspired by, and then, together, we said the guardian angel prayer for them.

Just an explanation, @Keeptoiletssafe, if you suddenly sensed a protective and supportive force, that's why.

That's lovely 🥹

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 15:59

Dave?

Yeah what mate?

Could you go and sit really still in the bog in Asda for 10 minutes?

Probably, why?

Coz when you don't move for 10 minutes it will set off an alarm and the security guard will have to go into the loo to check you haven't had a heart attack so I can nick a couple of bottles of booze while he's gone.

Yeah sounds good, can you get me some JD?

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/06/2026 16:11

That is plausible actually 😬😂.

There’s a doctor whose defence for putting hidden cameras in staff toilets was he was checking penis sizes against his because he was worried he had a small one. A total of 21 men and nine women, four of whom were doctors, were filmed over almost three years.

Wonder what excuse (if he is guilty) the Scottish MP will come up with? That must be soon?

edit: obviously innocent til proven otherwise.

MedicalConsensus · 28/06/2026 16:29

GriseldaandMike · 28/06/2026 15:59

Dave?

Yeah what mate?

Could you go and sit really still in the bog in Asda for 10 minutes?

Probably, why?

Coz when you don't move for 10 minutes it will set off an alarm and the security guard will have to go into the loo to check you haven't had a heart attack so I can nick a couple of bottles of booze while he's gone.

Yeah sounds good, can you get me some JD?

Edited

If Dave could hold his breath for 10 minutes that could help, but his partner will have to find someone else for the next heist.

Modern environmental sensors exist to detect things a camera could, but without using one.
They trigger based on micro-movements (like breathing), specific acoustic impacts (like the sound of a heavy physical collapse) or air quality changes.
If someone manages to fake that just as items are getting shoplifted, they're in for a pickle to explain it. I'm sure there's better ways for Dave to be useful

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/06/2026 16:31

MedicalConsensus · 28/06/2026 16:29

If Dave could hold his breath for 10 minutes that could help, but his partner will have to find someone else for the next heist.

Modern environmental sensors exist to detect things a camera could, but without using one.
They trigger based on micro-movements (like breathing), specific acoustic impacts (like the sound of a heavy physical collapse) or air quality changes.
If someone manages to fake that just as items are getting shoplifted, they're in for a pickle to explain it. I'm sure there's better ways for Dave to be useful

I see the sprinkles on the turd flavoured lollipop are still being refined

MedicalConsensus · 28/06/2026 16:53

lcakethereforeIam · 28/06/2026 11:51

Retrofitting all public toilets, or just schools, for these high-tech loos would cost and absolute fortune. Even assuming it were possible. The resin doors are more expensive than the standard ones, are probably heavier which means the fixtures will have to be more robust and also more expensive.

So let's weigh up the cost and upheaval of all this; getting the law changed, getting architects to draw up designs, getting planning consent, buying the materials, building them, including buying the AI software and hardware (which might not actually exist yet), buying licences to use the software, putting aside money to have it calibrated every so often, sorting out the staff to monitor it while simultaneously paying redundancy to the staff who also won't be needed, sorting out toilets and rooms that will be needed while the building work puts existing facilities out of commission. There's probably more.

Alternatively buy two sets of signs. Half for the women's toilets marked 'women' and/or 🚺 , half for the men's marked 'men' and/or 🚹.

Edited

Thankfully, bathrooms don't have to change overnight. They can be modified bit by bit as parts of them are proven to be a better alternative.
The law is already here, no need to modify it as we've got Document T.

The technology really isn't futuristic at all, an engineering student could make it as a side-project.
It's practically just a mmWave radar running on very simple logic gates, which is already being used in smart buildings.
You can tie it into a building's existing security or fire alarm panel, meaning you don't need to hire dedicated staff for it, just use what is already available.

You're right that resin doors are heavier and solid, but standard commercial hardware is already designed to deal with them.

The real issue, as with any improvements people bring up (and hell, there are so many brilliant ideas out there), is simply governments not giving a crap about doing the bare minimum to implement them. So many of these ideas could actually lead to less money being spent long-term and turn into an investment.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 28/06/2026 16:53

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/06/2026 16:31

I see the sprinkles on the turd flavoured lollipop are still being refined

😅

HousePlantEmergency · 28/06/2026 16:56

I wrote a long post, but lost it 🙄

I just cannot believe we're at the stage of fitting fucking acoustic/motion sensors just so men can circumvent a "No".

I don't want to send my tween boy into the mens alone either! Given there's around 4000 convictions for child sex offences each year (excluding online convictions), He's at risk. Hes actually vulnerable. Wouldn't stand a chance against an adult man. But I still send him in alone because it's the right thing to do. We should be modelling to men and boys that women's privacy matters. As does mens!

Although this chap sounds utterly crackers, tech might just have the answer for us...

"Modern tracking systems are so sensitive to variations in stride, hip movement complexity, and arm swing that they can identify whether a silhouette is male or female with 98% accuracy based entirely on 3D joint data—even if the person's face and clothing are completely obscured"

So, if money is to be thrown at this problem anyway (according to our friend) then let's get these tracking systems in place with a turnstile. And some facial recognition. Bob's your uncle. Hes not getting in.

"Overall, top-tier facial recognition systems achieve over 99% accuracy under controlled conditions, while combining it with gait analysis pushes multimodal biometric accuracy past 99% even in poor environmental conditions"

And if Bob does get in, everyone in the loo will know he's bypassed the system in some way, so we'll know he's a wrong un.

We don't need our fucking facilities adapted. They're made for us. We don't need to fuck about with it with door gaps and fucking sensors. We're happy with the doors and communal sinks exactly the way they are, because we're sharing them with other women and girls.
This has only become a point of discussion because some male narcissists cannot hear "No".

So, if tech is the answer, let's go!

And yes, we can always strive for better safety and facilities, (unfortunately some people do sadly die or become victims of a crime) - before I get accused of not caring about the people who still die/suffer despite the single sex door gaps, or something equally emotionally manipulative.

Just men not entering somewhere that is not meant for them would suffice.
Its free too!
No tech needed.
Just stay out.
Its really, really not hard.

Helleofabore · 28/06/2026 16:59

I must admit to not wading through the middle of the thread.

Did anyone bring up the fact that if male people don’t want to use male single sex provisions due to safety, that funding for national safety and inclusivity campaigns should be sought. Rather than, you know, replacing female single sex provisions with mixed sex provisions?

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