Article on "arguing with a TERF"

[MyAmpleSheep]

I love to keep up with the other side, so here's a lot of words just to say "it's complicated." meanwhile he ignores the obvious answer to his own question.

www.fasttrackfemme.com/p/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-with

There are a lot of “fecal plumes” in general.

Have you given up even pretending to be a human now?

Instead of the usual 'span'?

Why?

https://data.scorenetwork.org/basketball/nba_wingspans_and_performance_separate.html

"Retaining a slight bone density or wingspan advantage might make the difference between gold and silver, but it isn't the metric used by criminologists to calculate everyday physical violence".

If it isn't used by criminologists to calculate the power of a male person's attack, then I am very surprised. By all means, please link up where we can read that criminologists ignore the power of a person's body to cause harm to another when calculating the impact of physical violence . I am very keen to read that and read why.

"Retaining a slight bone density or wingspan advantage might make the difference between gold and silver"

The modelling of power and leverage is indeed important in assessing the physical harm potential of a group of male people in whether or not they should included in the general male population for purposes of safeguarding policies intended to reduce the risk of harm to female people. And again, it is just one type of the harm that has to be considered for the provision of female single sex provisions.

A male person with greater grip strength and punching power, even after suppressing testosterone, has to be considered in the development of robust safeguarding policies for female single sex provisions.

yep.

It all amounts to fuckwittery to wheedle male people getting what they want.

So you envisage these toilets only being cleaned three times a day? Even is someone makes a mess? No call-out of cleaners when they are needed.

Ugh

And the reason the places that get touched by hands are the disease vectors are because they get touched by hands that may then touch food, faces, eyes, mouths. Shoes not so much.

The current polling in the UK shows that female respondents want to have female single sex toilets and changing rooms.

How does it benefit female people in the UK to change the toilet provision to being mixed sex? Regardless of whether a basin is inside a toilet or outside in a communal space, how does it benefit female people to have no single sex provision and only mixed sex provision?

Sorry no idea. I guess because span alone could mean hand span or arm span but I've not a clue why wing span rather than arm span.

First, you cannot fit a standard pram inside a traditional gapped cubicle either.
In that setup, a parent must leave their pram out in the communal sink area and lock themselves in a tiny stall, physically separating themselves from their baby.
If the main advantage of a traditional single-sex space is that a mother is forced to use the toilet with the stall door wide open just to keep an eye on her child, that seems like an architectural failure.
The modern solution does not force parents to compromise their dignity. It provides properly sized, dedicated family/parent rooms specifically designed to accommodate prams behind a locked door, keeping the parent and child together in total privacy.

Second, regarding accessible toilets: a standard gapped cubicle is not an accessible toilet either.
If the main accessible room is occupied or unavailable, a wheelchair user cannot simply squeeze into a standard multi-stall cubicle.
Fully enclosed ambulant universal toilets (which are slightly wider, contain grab rails, and feature outward-opening doors) actually improve upon this. They provide a safe, fully private alternative for individuals who need extra physical support but do not require a full wheelchair turning circle.

None of that means that men are women though.

Weak men are men.

I could leave the pram in the communal area and take the baby into the stall with me. I could see or hear if someone tried to take the pram 'coz door gaps. In your design I'm leaving it in a corridor with 'high volume traffic'. I could send my toddlers into the stall alone from the day they were potty trained and hear if/when they needed me to pop in and help. Under your design I'm having to use the larger family stall until they are at an age when I'm confident they are totally independent so we need many more of these larger stalls.

"First, you cannot fit a standard pram inside a traditional gapped cubicle either."

No shit Sherlock. You are posting on Mumsnet, we are very aware of the dimensions of toilets and prams.

"In that setup, a parent must leave their pram out in the communal sink area and lock themselves in a tiny stall, physically separating themselves from their baby."

Tell me you are male without using those words.

No... what happens in those cases is that the female person with the pram goes to the toilet with pram in the open doorway so that person has line of sight of their child.

"If the main advantage of a traditional single-sex space is that a mother is forced to use the toilet with the stall door wide open just to keep an eye on her child, that seems like an architectural failure.
The modern solution does not force parents to compromise their dignity. It provides properly sized, dedicated family/parent rooms specifically designed to accommodate prams behind a locked door, keeping the parent and child together in total privacy."

You are now using utopia to sell your solution. It is an issue with many toilets around the UK. There are very few parent rooms in the UK.

So.... where and when are all these parent rooms being built? In my local pub, where will that parent room be put? At the moment, there is a communal space in the female single sex toilet that provides at the very least privacy from male people.

If surgery and hormones had any effect on selfish male entitlement vis a vis women, we wouldn't be seeing these persistent attempts to invade women's spaces, nor the expectation that the whole toileting system be overhauled to suit the wishes of a tiny minority.

What happens in reality is that women use the end stall if possible and play peekaboo with their baby and the door.

Also if we see this set up, we know how to avert our gaze. And we a confident that because there are no men, everyone will do the same.

"If the main accessible room is occupied or unavailable, a wheelchair user cannot simply squeeze into a standard multi-stall cubicle."

If a person in a wheelchair has a carer, and can be lifted and helped onto a toilet in a standard cubicle, that will be the only option available. Having been in that situation numerous times as a carer, the only way it works is that the door is jammed open with the wheelchair as you cannot leave the person to remove the chair and shut the door.

Again, just to repeat, there is a reason that having a communal space that is single sex and leads off into the toilets works for more than what seems to be the limited usage that some people want to believe is the total of how toilets are used.

There is no benefit to female people to have their single sex provision and communal space that is single sex replaced by mixed sex toilets.

If the only benefit is that some male people who reject using the single sex provision provided for them (ie male single sex provisions) for whatever reason they choose to reject those provisions can still use a facility, then it is pretty clear that the needs of female people are not even being considered.

I tried taking my very upset child into a toilet out of the pram, and it was impossible to even get my clothes down while preventing them to from hitting their head with all the flailing around.

I just had to leave them in the pram and entertain them with door wide open.

Weakened men still have the grip strength that is available to male people with skeletal proportions, bone density and musculature.

But apparently, they are comparative to women.

I am very much looking forward to seeing the evidence for this as it seems that the sporting federations missed significant evidence. oh.... wait ... apparently that only matters for podium places ....

Retrofitting all public toilets, or just schools, for these high-tech loos would cost and absolute fortune. Even assuming it were possible. The resin doors are more expensive than the standard ones, are probably heavier which means the fixtures will have to be more robust and also more expensive.

So let's weigh up the cost and upheaval of all this; getting the law changed, getting architects to draw up designs, getting planning consent, buying the materials, building them, including buying the AI software and hardware (which might not actually exist yet), buying licences to use the software, putting aside money to have it calibrated every so often, sorting out the staff to monitor it while simultaneously paying redundancy to the staff who also won't be needed, sorting out toilets and rooms that will be needed while the building work puts existing facilities out of commission. There's probably more.

Alternatively buy two sets of signs. Half for the women's toilets marked 'women' and/or 🚺 , half for the men's marked 'men' and/or 🚹.

It has been shown that female students in schools don’t like mixed sex provisions. Even with hand basins contained with the toilet.

This has been discussed over and over again.

There is no benefit to female people in replacing all toilets with mixed sex toilets when the practical needs of female people are considered.

The discussion really equates to whataboutery and fuckwittery.

I found it went in waves tiny baby fine, screaming wriggler not so much, then compliant in early toddlerhood, then less so then OK again.

It a bit like do you leave them in the car when paying for petrol? Yes, except the bit when they figured out how to escape from the car seat but were too young to be bribed to stay in it/ the car.

Ooh, the AI gets better at this as the days go on!
"Fully enclosed ambulant universal toilets" and "pram" instead of "stroller" or "baby carriage" -nicely trained!

oops, "tiny stall" and "stall door" - must do better.

You mean Redbull was lying?!?!?!

I’ve got an idea. Dude goes gets the funding and permissions and converts the men’s into his ideal big brother style toilet and we see how we go?

Yep it will solve all ills so the men who want to be women will be really safe in there. Job done.