Article on "arguing with a TERF"

[MyAmpleSheep]

I love to keep up with the other side, so here's a lot of words just to say "it's complicated." meanwhile he ignores the obvious answer to his own question.

www.fasttrackfemme.com/p/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-with

Yeah, that's where third spaces come in

Third spaces are accessible toilets. They are highly valued. But also suffer the same fate as they are mixed sex and private. See this BBC article on why we need RADAR keys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-22602836
“Disabled people's toilets are big, private and less likely to be occupied than regular-sized ones. As a result they are open to misuse by the general public. Most notoriously, they are sometimes occupied by drug users or people having sex”.

You have no evidence that the average isn't men like that, who would clearly be able to defend themselves in the unlikely event that some other man picked a fight.

Gay men didn't demand to use women's facilities because they identify and live as men. And if they simply not let people know they're gay, then they're also free of the trouble.
And the logical next step are third spaces

Baby Boa Strap Wrench

Life changer.

edit: for lids 😂

You can have as many accessible toilets as you like, but if bad actors males insist on using women's toilets, of course they are no help.

I keep a set of mole grips in the kitchen cabinet.

If all else fails, and you aren't aiming to reuse the lid when the jar is empty:
Stick a hole in the lid with a corkscrew to relieve the pressure. After you've opened the jar, stick a piece of sellotape over the hole.

The next logical step is a new design of single sex accessible toilets within the single sex suite. This would be incredibly expensive and hard to implement but would help the needs of many, including non ambulant people independent of a carer and those that need bigger facilities eg. Parents with pushchairs.
This reduces the numbers using the private mixed sex accessible for those who needed that.

Ambulant toilets have really helped too and these are now common in many places.

But what is your proof, your actuarial proof as it were, that transwomen are 'on average' smaller or weaker or slimmer than average men. That doesn't strike me as something that is coming from stats, that comes across as a random pulled out of the air thought presented as a fact. I thought you were all about the data so please don't make wild claims like this without any evidence to back it up.

Especially when one of poor little Stevie's other lecturers blog posts is entitled 'How to build a great body as a transwoman'.

Just listen when we say no to men trying to take our stuff.

@Keeptoiletssafe
"The safest design is one that prevents bad things happening in the first place... actual eyes are better than cctv. If a bad person thinks they may have a witness, the risk of getting caught goes up."

Wouldn't a mixed bathroom be the safest option by that criteria

"Some bad men pretend to be transwomen... So how would you differentiate?"

We can skip that
Already proposed earlier in the thread building Porta-Potty's by lgbt organisations, and why it's probably their best use of money in the long term.

Yeah, that's what I do. I have one old teaspoon with a pointy-ended handle. I just stick it up between the glass and the underside of the lid, and twist. If I lose it, I'll be completely buggered. I'll have to ask one of the menfolk.

I think this is one of those "irregular verbs" type scenarios.

Disobedient women need in-depth statistical actuarial analysis to be allowed to express themselves about anything.

MedCon can just waft words around however he likes, with a hefty dose of AI-generated verbosity.

Is women's dignity and privacy not being considered? The complications around menstruation, pregnancy, lactation, menopause, and the right to cope with those without a male audience.

And "trans women" live as men who call themselves women.

If someone uses the words "on average" the proper response is surely "which sort of average are we talking about here?"

Heh! I keep a strap-wrench in the drawer under the hob.

Are moles really wide enough for all the jars one might have trouble with?

I said "presents with female sex characteristics and" for a reason.
This only applies to this specific group of trans women.

If we agree on the effects of estrogen, then I don't think data is needed. This is a situation where I can simply use common sense (unless you disagree, then sure, I'd have to provide data)

Why would someone who identifies as a woman, but obviously looks like a man, as they didn't take estrogen, put on a wig and enter the male bathroom?
A big part of them would be the 60% who avoid bathrooms in the first place.

Most trans women who present with female sex characteristics are going to be on estrogen, because the alternative could in no way be pleasant.

Men who think they are women didn't either. It was the doctors who made them use the female spaces and if they didnt get stopped they apparently were 'living as a woman'. Not considering for one second no woman wants a punch in the face from a brick shithouse in the ladies loos so didn't actually stop them.

No a mixed sex ‘bathroom’ is the worst design because the occupant (s) are in private in a public space, and both sexes are eligible to be there. Others can’t see through a door to check the occupant(s). You can see out or listen to hear who is out there. You don’t remember the privacy arguments that you already agreed with me on? You are not learning. There are crimes in toilets in busy stations, hospitals, schools etc.

One of your original preferences, the private cubicle within a mixed sex area of sinks, is a design also preferred by transwoman Susan Stryker. Stryker wanted one-way mirrors at eye level specifically at the ‘sitting down on the toilet level’, so the occupant could see who else was around. It always struck me as odd (disregarding the dangers of glass and how dark the cubicle would have to be for one-way to work) as when you are about to leave you are standing up. That’s when a woman would want to know who is around. I would also hazard a guess that most women would want a row of men sitting on the toilet looking at them. Many women hover anyway and certainly would feel uncomfortable watching people whilst they were in the toilet. Quickest way to paruresis.

‘Inclusive’ gender-neutral designs are not regulated and have never been safety tested. Universal design is the nearest we have to it.

Why are you skipping the other question?

Taking oestrogen in your late teens and twenties does not retrospectively alter male body development before and during puberty. Or are we also postulating puberty blockers from age ten or so? But in any case you're right, in that brittle bones, heart problems and such are definitely likely to be a handicap in a straight fight with a fit woman in her twenties or thirties who is combat trained. (Oestrogen is also an alternative that could be in no way pleasant. I don't think this is emphasised enough to the poor kids who are encouraged to take far too much of it.)

There is a horrific list of things too much oestrogen – ie enough to make a man look a bit more like a woman – may also do to that man, or greatly increase his risk of suffering. OK, he might get lucky and not suffer cognitive impairment, or diabetes, or thyroid cancer, or pancreatitis.... There is always autoimmune disease as a booby prize. And retinal vein occlusion lurking in the wings.

Well EddieSu Izzard identifies as a woman (when there isn't big paycheck male role to snap him back into boy mode) and he uses the ladies. It's utter twaddle that only small, weak men use the ladies when the transition I know a couple of really big units that are more than happy to stomp into the women's. It's not a 'specific group' of transwomen that what our stuff, it's all of them. Even the ones who have the lady feelz all the time. Even the ones who have never and will never touch an artificial hormone. Even the ones who grab a man on live TV and threaten them with an ambulance ride.

I didn't have time to read this thread from the start so just popped onto this last page, and...

What in the ever loving heck are you guys talking about?! 😂

(No need to answer - very rude of me to interrupt and I can of course find out for myself, but this really made me laugh at a time I needed it, creating some wonderful images - thank you, mole tormenters).

Of course I have a typo in my last post. Instead of ‘I would also hazard a guess that most women would want a row of men sitting on the toilet looking at them’ it’s obviously ‘I would also hazard a guess that most women wouldn’t want a row of men sitting on the toilet looking at them’!

"If we agree on the effects of estrogen"

A) we don't agree. A weaker man is still 'on average' bigger and stronger than an average woman.

B) we have explained until we are blue in the face, until the cows came home (and went out again) that it is not just about physical risk, it is also about dignity and privacy and being triggered by the sight or sound of a male in what should be a female space.

C) TRAs won't let us draw the line anywhere. They won't say 'yeah OK fairs fair if you let us in to yoga we will stay away from rugby' or 'of course it should only be surgically transitioned transwomen that get to 'be' women' or 'hey tell you what give us the validation of toilets and we will keep out of changing rooms'.

They want all of it, every last bit so there is nothing females can have to themselves. Not 14 year old girls in tents at guide camp, not prison cells, not words for our unique bodies nothing. And they don't want any conditions, any limitations, any requirements on which transwomen can have it.

The law says they can't have it so stop wheedling. Men are not women and women's things are not for men.