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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

281 replies

Pyjamatimenow · 01/06/2026 23:42

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

OP posts:
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MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 14:06

BananaPeels · Yesterday 13:49

I still don’t get the point. Women and men have different bodies and look good in different clothes. We wear different clothes to look sexy to the opposite sex isn’t strange. Animals have different markings and feathers for that reason. Of course men’s clothes are designed to attract the opposite sex (or their own if so inclined). It is just their method of attraction is different as - men and women are different biologically! That’s the point. And as it happens women look just as attractive and jeans and t-shirts as men do

how Is a women wearing short dress different to a man wearing shorts with no top on?

Edited

I will try to put the point more succinctly then.

Women and men have different bodies and look good in different clothes.

The difference is in the kinds of clothes in which (in the aggregate) men and women feel they "look good."

Abiding by stereotypes, men look good in clothes and styles that denote seniority, accomplishment and ability. Seniority, accomplishment and ability exist outside the male-female sex binary. A man in practical bike leathers is sexy. A man in bike leathers too fine to be of any practical use is a fashion victim.

Women look good (again, abiding by stereotype) in clothes and styles that amplify female primary and secondary sexual characteristics, which are only distinguishable by reference to the male-female sex binary. Those clothes and styles actually hinder ability and accomplishment. A woman in heels is sexy. A woman in heels too high to walk in is "sexier".

And as it happens women look just as attractive and jeans and t-shirts as men do

Trans-identifying men don't post pictures of themselves in jeans and t-shirts because those clothes aren't sex coded as worn by women.

men’s clothes are designed to attract the opposite sex

No, on the whole, they're not. They're designed for comfort, practicality, or to signify wealth or success.

Gotobedbyday · Yesterday 14:06

BananaPeels · Yesterday 13:49

I still don’t get the point. Women and men have different bodies and look good in different clothes. We wear different clothes to look sexy to the opposite sex isn’t strange. Animals have different markings and feathers for that reason. Of course men’s clothes are designed to attract the opposite sex (or their own if so inclined). It is just their method of attraction is different as - men and women are different biologically! That’s the point. And as it happens women look just as attractive and jeans and t-shirts as men do

how Is a women wearing short dress different to a man wearing shorts with no top on?

Edited

High heels, long hair, the colour pink, makeup, lace, leg defining hosiery have all been considered the height of masculinity. People though men looked at their best in them.

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 14:09

BananaPeels · Yesterday 13:49

I still don’t get the point. Women and men have different bodies and look good in different clothes. We wear different clothes to look sexy to the opposite sex isn’t strange. Animals have different markings and feathers for that reason. Of course men’s clothes are designed to attract the opposite sex (or their own if so inclined). It is just their method of attraction is different as - men and women are different biologically! That’s the point. And as it happens women look just as attractive and jeans and t-shirts as men do

how Is a women wearing short dress different to a man wearing shorts with no top on?

Edited

how Is a women wearing short dress different to a man wearing shorts with no top on?

Men don't stand around outside nightclubs in shorts when it's significantly below freezing.

Datun · Yesterday 14:12

OP, the way to understand that transgenderism is wholly based on regressive stereotypes, and therefore a cause of misogyny, not a victim of it, is to ask a transwomen why they think they're a woman.

The only answer possible is stereotypes.

And as evidenced by the men on this thread, the male socialisation just goes into overdrive on the back of it.

It's laughable that they claim to inhabit female stereotypes, when they exhibit brutal, violent male socialisation.

Forcing their presence into women's spaces, including online, pouring piss on themselves, battering and threatening women with rape.

And then go onto say how marvellous it is that, akcherlly, women like high heels, tight skirts and lording it sartorially over other women.

Transgenderism fetishises women's oppression. They're never excited or aroused by raising the kids, taking care of elderly parents or writing the Christmas cards, are they?

It's all about big boobs, fishnets and, as they so frequently tell us, being treated like a piece of meat.

There IS no way for a man to claim to be a woman unless he is basing it on stereotypes.

And so many of these men like to portray the most detrimental stereotypes they can.

Because they're not identifying as women, they're using them.

It IS misogyny.

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 14:14

ReaperGirl · 01/06/2026 23:54

You lot really are committed to bullying anyone who dares express a dissenting opinion off this board, aren't you.

"You lot"?
now who else do we know who refers to the posters on this board in this dismissive manner? Hmmmm let me think 🤔

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 14:21

Baileyonice · Yesterday 02:41

Best educate yourself of your ideological 'limitations' first. There are a couple of reasons why you are failing to grasp her post.

Firstly, you don't seem to understand the guiding principle of feminism which is self determination that isn't limited by reproductive biological characteristics. Principles retain their legitimacy only when they are consistently held. One simply can't demand self determination for one's self (women) & deny it to others (trans people). Reducing trans people's identity to deluded 'performers' of the opposite sex is an attack on their self determination which ironically mirrors MRA's who reduce feminism to simply 'man envy' rather than recognise their inherent psychological interchangeability with men. See the parallels between trans & women's struggles?

The second reason you are struggling to understand her post is gender critical ideology is underpinned by blank slatism. That is, they don't believe feminine & masculine expressions are organic inclinations rather imposed culturally as Germaine Greer explains below all while she is ironically 'performing' stereotypical femininity with her feminine presentation.

What gender critical's & GG seem to miss is humans don't blindly replicate one another. We don't do monkey see monkey do. There's usually what's called a 'missing link' where 'copying' is preceded by an organic inclination to a preference. Our inclinations often have deep roots in genetic & hormonal influences that form our personality traits. Again, feminism wasn't about 'copying' men because there was nothing to copy. We women already had within us the same psychological traits that legitimised equal treatment.

Another example of transphobia being rooted in misogyny is how much more trans women are demonised & dehumanised than trans men particularly as being motivated by sexual deviancy & predation.

The common refrain we hear from GC talking points is 'trans people promote stereotypes by claiming the are the opposite gender' but even if they didn't claim they were the opposite gender we all know that despite what a natal male who expresses feminine presentation calls themselves it would still be socially unacceptable but not so for a butch natal female. Clearly there's misogynist social expectations regarding gender expression that is unrelated to what trans people call themselves & yet trans people are accused of being the enablers of it.

Now some might say that trans people promote sexist stereotypes by expressing traditional /feminine behaviours but don't cis women too? Aren't they 'promoting' misogyny too? Or are they 'let off the hook' for 'not knowing any better' as hapless 'victims' lacking autonomy? Or might it be both these groups like what they like because of internal inclinations that just so happen to be aligned with social expectations but still have every right to self determination just like everyone else.

Edited

You want croutons with that word salad?

LazyFoxy · Yesterday 14:22

Yes Elen. Insults go one way. Guess when coherent argument fails, out come the jibes

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:22

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 14:09

how Is a women wearing short dress different to a man wearing shorts with no top on?

Men don't stand around outside nightclubs in shorts when it's significantly below freezing.

Neither do most women! And if they are standing out in the cold like that it is because they don’t want to faff of queuing for the cloakroom

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 14:32

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 14:21

You want croutons with that word salad?

As somebody once said "dress however you please", however it doesn't change your sex.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 14:34

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:22

Neither do most women! And if they are standing out in the cold like that it is because they don’t want to faff of queuing for the cloakroom

Edited

I think there are clubs where men would hang around outside wearing minimal clothing.

It just doesn't change anybody's sex.

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 14:35

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:22

Neither do most women! And if they are standing out in the cold like that it is because they don’t want to faff of queuing for the cloakroom

Edited

Some women do, and that is enough to make the point. And everyone understands the reason they do it (nor is it anything to do with cloakrooms).

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:37

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 14:35

Some women do, and that is enough to make the point. And everyone understands the reason they do it (nor is it anything to do with cloakrooms).

I am honestly struggling to understand what the point of it is.

all it is proving to me is that men and women are biologically different and act and dress differently due to their different sexes and how they go about a mating ritual. Nothing at all to do with gender at all.

Datun · Yesterday 14:41

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:37

I am honestly struggling to understand what the point of it is.

all it is proving to me is that men and women are biologically different and act and dress differently due to their different sexes and how they go about a mating ritual. Nothing at all to do with gender at all.

That IS gender.

Aa the saying goes, women are oppressed because of their sex, gender is the means by which it's done.

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 14:42

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:37

I am honestly struggling to understand what the point of it is.

all it is proving to me is that men and women are biologically different and act and dress differently due to their different sexes and how they go about a mating ritual. Nothing at all to do with gender at all.

The wider point is that by adopting hyper-feminine styling trans-identifying men are utilizing a male-female binary, not fighting it.

It was argued that women and trans-identifying men want to wear heels because they're intrinsically "nice", not because men like them. I'm saying they're only thought of as nice (instead of uncomfortable) because they are attractive to men.

AnnaNirvana2 · Yesterday 14:57

"Transphobia" is a made up word. Phobia means fear of. If so called "transphobic" people are afraid of anything, it is being afraid of women and children losing THEIR rights and safeguarding boundaries to allow a "special" group of MEN (mostly) into their hard won, legally protected spaces.
Here are some facts ( bear in mind I am a Biologist). No one can change sex. Some people have a mental disorder ( usually more than one) that makes them "think" they are a different sex. They perform what they think that preferred sex, using their version of sex stereotypes. For men, most of whom suffer from "Autogynaephilia", that version of "femininity is informed by porn. The term Autogynaephile means that they are sxually turned on by the thought of themselves as women, sometimes even little girls.
More facts, despite what trans allies tell you about "transwomen" being safer than other men, they are up to 3 times more likely to be x offenders and aedo
hiles, than other men.
I recommend you research what I have stated, including
#notourcrimes , sissy prn ,websites reduxx, and Sex matters.
These men are faking pregnancy, periods and taking hormones so that they can "chestfeed" newborns, all to satisfy their male urges. If we don't stop it now, they'll be taking all of our rights and our children's.
Trans rights are MEN'S rights.

Gotobedbyday · Yesterday 15:00

Men who claim to identify as women identify with their sexual fantasy of a woman and this is directed by porn which is in turn directed by men.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:13

BananaPeels · Yesterday 14:37

I am honestly struggling to understand what the point of it is.

all it is proving to me is that men and women are biologically different and act and dress differently due to their different sexes and how they go about a mating ritual. Nothing at all to do with gender at all.

Are you understanding that many people are not engaging in a mating ritual when they choose their clothes in the morning?

TheHateUGive · Yesterday 15:14

GreyskySexRealistsky · Yesterday 11:40

This is one of the reasons GI supporters love "no debate".

It isn't just to shut sex realists up - it's because they are unable to make solid arguments and "no debate" gets them out of having to do so.

What is a GI supporter?

What are my views on trans people or gender identity as a whole? Do you know them?

BananaPeels · Yesterday 15:16

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:13

Are you understanding that many people are not engaging in a mating ritual when they choose their clothes in the morning?

that’s my point. How they dress at a nightclub has got nothing to do with how they dress normally but apparently dressing with tiny dresses and high heals and make up is the default choice for women now as all they want to do is attract men. I don’t agree with that. Most women dress for comfort and for themselves not just to attract men.

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 15:27

TheHateUGive · Yesterday 08:13

What I notice about both very pro-trans rights people and GC people on places like here is that they do share very rigid ideas about the sexes.

It's veey much like men are X and women are Y (or maybe the other way around!). Most arguments on both sides are founded in the belief that men have a shared set of thoughts, behaviours and intentions and women do, too. It's interesting to watch.

Except the GC posters on here are pretty consistent in saying the exact opposite to that.
Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension in general or is it just on mumsnet?

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 15:31

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Yesterday 08:01

I'm a parent who doesn't spend my life vexing about a minority and imagining it's feminism.

I'd never reject my child for who they are, or try to control them.

The vast, vast majority of trans kids will never even get counselling for their gender dysphoria. Surgery for under-18s is banned most places.

But trans men are being forced towards surgery by denial of care when they were younger, which is awful.

Anyone who obsesses over children's bodies online should really consider how they look to other people. It's suspect as hell, given the tiny number of trans kids who take hormones or blockers.

Women's rights are undermined by anti-trans activism. It promotes gender conformity, disparages female accomplishment in sport, and encourages the idea of limiting what young women should be able to do with their bodies.

It attracts men who like talking about children's bodies, the far right (because it normalises the use of slurs, encourages the idea that minorities can be attacked, infantilises women) and people who enjoy bullying.

I've encountered some good people on here. But many are simply eager to throw hate, resorting to furious sarcasm and glorying in being abusive. That is resulting in a lot of real-world violence, while doing nothing to combat VAWG.

It's enjoyable, though. Far more fun to discuss whether trans women should be allowed to modify their bodies than reckon with the horrifying rape injustice stories of the past week.

But I think my biggest issue with transphobia is how it lets violent cis men off the hook. Their abhorrent behaviour is seen as inevitable and unchallengable, so best focus on making sure completely public, unprotected spaces don't contain the odd trans woman instead. Throw some slurs at them, make it a game! Maybe film a few signs? Be furious when a trans man appears on a dating show - that'll help! Oh look, a flag! In Waitrose!

Meanwhile, violent cis men and paedophiles are delighted, because they can join in too. Telling women they'll be their protectors. Attacking parents for standing up for their kids.

I'm a parent who rejects the petty, do-nothing, deeply reductionist opinions of transphobia, and is right now praying my child comes home safe.

Well, you asked.

I like how you haven't let actual evidence interfere with your opinions here.
It's rare to be able to speak at such length without once disturbing the facts.

TheHateUGive · Yesterday 15:33

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 15:27

Except the GC posters on here are pretty consistent in saying the exact opposite to that.
Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension in general or is it just on mumsnet?

No i read exactly what is said. I know what they like to say when pressed but I also know what they voluntarily give away when they are just chatting and not on guard. It's very slugs, snails and puppy dog tails

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:45

TheHateUGive · Yesterday 15:33

No i read exactly what is said. I know what they like to say when pressed but I also know what they voluntarily give away when they are just chatting and not on guard. It's very slugs, snails and puppy dog tails

You think that gender critical women on mumsnet are little boys?

I mean it's possible. It's an anonymous talk board.

You really need to pay attention to what is argued in court.

TheHateUGive · Yesterday 15:47

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 15:45

You think that gender critical women on mumsnet are little boys?

I mean it's possible. It's an anonymous talk board.

You really need to pay attention to what is argued in court.

I think some are big boys for sure. That's pretty obvious.

Others just believe that girls are made of nice stuff and boys made of yucky stuff.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 15:49

TheHateUGive · Yesterday 15:33

No i read exactly what is said. I know what they like to say when pressed but I also know what they voluntarily give away when they are just chatting and not on guard. It's very slugs, snails and puppy dog tails

Mate, it still doesn’t mean a group of men are anything other than men. However sexist or non sexist the belief the individual speaker holds. However much you disapprove of the speaker. Zero effort whataboutery 🤷‍♀️ that’s all you have though, clearly.

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