Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

They’re not unnecessary, and it’s not trivial to those who value those boundaries. There is never going to be this lofty utopia because human beings are animals at base.

I don't want unsolicited dick pics in my in box and I don't want to see random dicks when I'm changing for a swim. Even if all men become magically safe and unthreatening.

But you said that transwomen's rights are women's rights. Transwomen are men so they cannot have women's rights because they are not women.

Me neither.

But there is never going to be a time where no man is leering at women’s bodies, is there?

I like to think there could be. After all, men used to leer at ankles. In some places they still do. So it's cultural and that means it can change.

Though actually I think the after effects of rape/violence are the thing we will never get rid of rather than culturally sanctioned leering.

But no, I'm not suggesting a cutoff when few enough women care to matter. I'm suggesting I'm happy to believe in men enough to believe that someday women wouldn't bother walking past a mixed sex space to find a single sex one.

I also find it a very helpful position to defang the "you just hate men / you just think women are inherently victims" line of attack or obfustication.

But again, since we are very far from that possibly, it's not a difference of belief that needs to divide us here and now.

Some women wouldn’t. Maybe even most women in your utopia. But some women will, especially with religious or cultural considerations. It will never be the case that all women are comfortable undressing in front of men.

Some cultures are much more comfortable with nakedness and with men and women mingling. The fact that ours doesn't is not an excuse to weaken women's boundaries - I've seen numerous TRA apologists "no one minds in Germany, you're all just prudes."

So I'm a little wary when people pull out the "it's just cultural" line.

I agree with Ample that men do deserve spaces away from the female gaze for privacy. It's just safety in those instances isn't really an issue so it doesn't get as much attention. No women are invading boys' toilets and assaulting them like Dolatowski.

I really don't recognise the characterisation @TheHateUGive claims to see - that we see men and women in some monolithic group-think way. I have two adults sons who couldn't be further away from the "Boys will be boys" stereotypes, and my daughter was by far the most dominant, forceful and athletic one.

I've had 27 years of seeing the stereotypes not apply. Hell, they didn't apply to my parents either while Dad did the groceries and the cooking and mum preferred to do the driving and use the power tools.

That's fine. We don't have to agree on what's possible in the future to agree on what's needed in the present.

I really enjoyed the discussion between @MyAmpleSheep and @FlirtsWithRhinos, thanks!

Nothing. I'd just ignore it. If this is the first time your friend has felt moved to post in this vein, she's very late to the party. A committed trans ally would have been saying this stuff for years, so she's probably just a faddy dabbler, who will likely move on to something else in time.

What a load of wank. It’s all words to avoid getting to the point.

A trans woman, according to gender ideology, is a woman because He has told you so. All this crap about dress /gender this or that/ when you get down to it the reason is “because I said so”. All of us know that, even you know it.
He is a woman because he has said so, and you want to punish in law anyone that would contradict him.

What a load of wank.

When you're right, you're right

We are all limited by our biology in a variety of ways. My digestive biology makes it impossible for me to survive on a diet of bamboo. My respiratory biology makes it impossible for me to breathe water like a fish. My skeletal biology precludes me from growing a pair of wings. All the self-determination in the world can't change these biological facts. Why should my reproductive biology be the only exception? My reproductive biology means I can only be a mother, never a father. My husband's reproductive biology means he can't contribute to breast-feeding our child.

The point you are missing is The Patriarchy was using biology to justify the discrimination of women just like biology is being used to discriminate against trans people. It's effectively saying there was no psychological legitimacy to women or trans people being treated equally because of their biology when there clearly is.

Self-determination never meant that we could re-write biology to suit our preferences.

Biology isn't being rewritten for trans no more than it was rewritten for women. The justification for self determination was psychological interchangeability. Both women & trans people have been accused of lacking legitimacy in these areas.

There's a reason why MRA blame feminism for the increased visibility of trans gender people because they believe feminism opened the door to their legitimacy when they claimed interchangeability with men…& they would be partly right.

What it means is that, when it comes to the choices we are all free to make - such as what work we will do, or what hobbies we will pursue, or who we will love, or where we will live, or what clothes we will wear, or how we will vote - our sex should not dictate the options available to us.

Yes & trans people have been discriminated is similar ways in terms of access to employment, housing, health care public utilities, safety etc. Like women protections from discrimination have been written into law & like women inequalities still persist on many levels despite the law.

Ahhh the curious case of Germaine Greer's 'metamorphosis' from gender non conforming dungaree wearing, unruly hair sans make up to feminine coifed stylised dyed hair, make up, jewellery, glasses & pretty dresses in her eighties?What 'dark cultural forces' could possibly have 'brain washed' someone who already knew & lived better about feminine stereotypes for much of their younger adult life?

The same 'dark forces' that 'brain washed' elite GC's JK Rowling, Helen Joyce & Maya Forstater into a blind worship for injected made up faces, long dyed hair & dresses but somehow bizarrely just like Greer wax lyrical about trans people single handedly maintaining feminine stereotypes?

Or maybe they like what the like because of their personal sensibilities?

We are to believe that they 'know' but yet 'don't know' about misogynistic sex stereotypes that 'caricature' women? The incoherence i breathtaking.

The point you are missing is The Patriarchy was using biology to justify the discrimination of women just like biology is being used to discriminate against trans people. It's effectively saying there was no psychological legitimacy to women or trans people being treated equally because of their biology when there clearly is

."The Patriarchy was using biology to justify the discrimination of women…" I didn't miss that point. I felt it was so obvious it didn't need to be stated.

"... just like biology is being used to discriminate against trans people." No, not "just like" at all. Women's biology, which makes them uniquely vulnerable in ways men are not, and the needs caused by that biology, were used to restrict their freedoms. Men needed to control women's reproductive abilities in order to control children, lineage, inheritance and wealth distribution. False but convenient conclusions about women's intellectual abilities were based on the assumption that because men are physically stronger, they must also be intellectually superior, as if the one had a direct correlation with the other.

Biology is not being used to discriminate against trans-people. They are claiming membership of a sex class they simply do not belong to.Transwomen are not women, they are men. If their situation is analogous to anything, it's analogous to someone claiming to be a Muslim when they're not so that they can visit the Ka'aba in Mecca, as Richard Burton did. The difference is that anyone can become a Muslim, and then they'd be entitled to visit Mecca, but the only human beings who can be women are the ones whose biology is by nature female.

Self-determination never meant that we could re-write biology to suit our preferences.
Biology isn't being rewritten for trans people any more than it was rewritten for women. The justification for self determination was psychological interchangeability. Both women & trans people have been accused of lacking legitimacy in these areas.

I can't figure out what you mean by the underlined sentences. What is "psychological interchangeability"?

There's a reason why MRA blame feminism for the increased visibility of trans gender people because they believe feminism opened the door to their legitimacy when they claimed interchangeability with men…& they would be partly right.

You cannot expect anyone to take seriously an argument that quotes the so-logic of men's rights activists.

What it means is that, when it comes to the choices we are all free to make - such as what work we will do, or what hobbies we will pursue, or who we will love, or where we will live, or what clothes we will wear, or how we will vote - our sex should not dictate the options available to us.
Yes & trans people have been discriminated against in similar ways in terms of access to employment, housing, health care, public utilities, safety etc. Like women protections from discrimination have been written into law & like women inequalities still persist on many levels despite the law.

Many groups are discriminated against in ways similar to the ways women have been and still are discriminated against. Disabled people, for instance.Trans identified people share many experiences with the disabled community. That doesn't mean trans identified people are disabled.

Nobody except fringe fascist nutters think trans identified people should be deprived of their civic, legal or human rights just because they choose to live as the opposite sex. Laws exist to protect them against such discrimination, and those laws need to be enforced.

“Best educate yourself of your ideological 'limitations' first”.

It’s “…educate yourself on…”

Recently, I’ve seen this phrasing often and it’s terrible English. It’s up there with “arrive to” and “apply to” (gah!) which should be “arrive at” and “apply for” respectively 😫

@Mapletree1985
I also ran through the word salad and was stumped at psychological interchangability, I ran the argument through chatGPT to ask them to reverse translate it into something coherent. But unfortunately:

A good test of a strong argument is whether someone who disagrees with it can still accurately summarise it. In this case, I think even a sympathetic reader would struggle to state exactly what is being argued, which is usually a sign that the writing needs substantial clarification.

"I can't figure out what you mean by the underlined sentences. What is "psychological interchangeability"?

Research shows that males and females share the vast majority of cognitive abilities, leadership traits, and personality dimensions.

You cannot expect anyone to take seriously an argument that quotes the so-logic of men's rights activists.

And yet GC ideology uses the same logic so thanks for confirming my point.

Many groups are discriminated against in ways similar to the ways women have been and still are discriminated against. Disabled people, for instance.Trans identified people share many experiences with the disabled community. That doesn't mean trans identified people are disabled.

No one is suggesting trans people are identical to cis people.

Nobody except fringe fascist nutters think trans identified people should be deprived of their civic, legal or human rights just because they choose to live as the opposite sex. Laws exist to protect them against such discrimination, and those laws need to be enforced.

The point is they were & continue to be discriminated on similar grounds which is relevant to the OP's question of why trans rights are women's rights.

"... just like biology is being used to discriminate against trans people." No, not "just like" at all. Women's biology, which makes them uniquely vulnerable in ways men are not, and the needs caused by that biology, were used to restrict their freedoms. Men needed to control women's reproductive abilities in order to control children, lineage, inheritance and wealth distribution. False but convenient conclusions about women's intellectual abilities were based on the assumption that because men are physically stronger, they must also be intellectually superior, as if the one had a direct correlation with the other.

'Just like' as in biology was used as a reason to limit rights. The details of why biology was used is irrelevant to the fact it was used against both women & transpeople.

Biology is not being used to discriminate against trans-people. They are claiming membership of a sex class they simply do not belong to.Transwomen are not women, they are men. If their situation is analogous to anything, it's analogous to someone claiming to be a Muslim when they're not so that they can visit the Ka'aba in Mecca, as Richard Burton did. The difference is that anyone can become a Muslim, and then they'd be entitled to visit Mecca, but the only human beings who can be women are the ones whose biology is by nature female.

Biology is absolutely being used to prevent trans people from being included in their associated psychological sex class.

Your example is a false equivalence because trans people actually have an association to their psychological sex class unlike a person pretending to be muslim. (this has already been covered upthread).

@Baileyonice
Your example is a false equivalence because trans people actually have an association to their psychological sex class unlike a person pretending to be muslim. (this has already been covered upthread).

They have a psychological association to a biological sex class which is not measurable or demonstrable in any acceptable way. Thats fine, trans people can live their lives as they see fit, no one is saying they can’t. They can stop trampling all over other people rights now, they can use a third space. We can all get along and live in peace.

"They have a psychological association to a biological sex class which is not measurable or demonstrable in any acceptable way."

We've done this already. Males & females sharing cognitive abilities & personality dimensions more common to one particular sex is scientifically uncontroversial.

And trans people don't need to 'prove' this to avoid discrimination anymore than people with religious or any other sincerely held beliefs do.

Sorry we measure 'lady brain' how?

Does my A in maths, love of sport and hatered of pink make me a man?

Personality dimensions!! It’s an intergalactic constellation of traits! What could be clearer.

Lol nice burn ChatGPT.