Be Kind 2.0 and the "Persuasive TRA"

[BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth]

This is a spinoff from another thread so as not to derail the original.

I thought it would be helpful to have a separate thread to discuss, and document, a phenomenon I have been seeing more regularly recently: the Persuasive TRA.

It occurred to me, after a few posters noted that the recent U-turns by a couple of politicians, and the wheedling TRA responses to the EHRC guidance, were akin to an abuser changing tactics and also asking us to "help" them in the new single-sex regime, that the whole thing is starting to pan out exactly as an abusive relationship often does. When is the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship? Normally, when she is leaving.

Well, women are leaving the abusive relationship with non-reality that men forced upon us some 15 years ago, and I would argue that now might be our most dangerous/difficult moment.

This is what I posted on the other thread:

I'm starting to see a bit more of what I am calling (in my own head) "Persuasive TRA." Now that they have lost everything that they bullied women for, some activists seem to be changing tack. Women must now fix the situation that TRAs have found themselves in. It seems to pivot on a sort of Be Kind 2.0.

I think women who have been in the game long enough will see through it, but we should be watchful. Stonewall is pivoting, activists are pivoting, and they will be preying on women's socialized kindness: watch for the destination and be on your guard.

I have read several posters on different threads appealing to everyone (women) to help calm trans-identified people's (men's) fears about what this new reality will look like, what it will mean for them (the men) now that they can't just do whatever they want anymore. What about the men's toilets? Are they safe? Where will they go? (Who will fix this problem?)

Well, apparently it is a problem that women can fix, if they just take a moment to think about it. Trans-identified men will be unsafe in the men's, so women need to join the fight to give these men something of their own.

Notice the pivot? The pleading? If you just... If you weren't so.... It can be different if you just... Sound familiar? To any woman who is in, or has escaped from, an abusive relationship, this will be all too familiar.

This is Be Kind 2.0. It's very similar to the original, except that instead of being forced to enjoy our abuse, we are being asked to fix it. And the "Persuasive TRAs" seem to be mobilizing, from what I have seen.

It won't start in the middle (with the women); it will start at the top (infiltrating government, think tanks, charities, etc.) and the bottom (schools). But they will use women to get this moving. Why not? It worked so well last time. And I believe that organizations like Stonewall will be leading the charge: the campaign can be something like Safe Spaces for Trans+ : All of Us Together.

If anyone else has seen this in action, it might be useful to keep a record of it here.

I imagine this thread will eventually be taken over by activists, but, until then, I would be interested in your thoughts.

I'm glad it's not just me Op, I've noticed a change of tone, not from all of them, but quite a few doing the couldn't we get along, can't you see if you just accepted us as your fellow women it would all be fine. They know the tides running against them now, they think we're so stupid we'll forget the threads of violence and take pity on them.

Good, I'm glad you have noticed as well! It's not all in my head, then. They will rely on us not noticing, and us being stupid, but we do and we're not!

I've seen this too but I just point out that we already offered to help campaign for fourth spaces and got labelled TERFs for it, so my answer now is no, mens violence against other men is not a problem for women to fix its a men problem.

Agreed! No from me!

I support fourth spaces but I'm not putting myself out to campaign for them. Especially after being called a 'Nazi aparthedist bigot' for suggesting it as a solution on X. 🙄

Not totally new though. Steph Rogers, who led the protest at Portsmouth FiLiA with the obscene graffiti, the very dodgy I AM WHO I AM placards & the chants that drowned out the sex trafficking survivors talking inside, was very sad because if we’d been the right kind of feminists he’d have been in there supporting us, and look what we’d made him do.

Agreed, thanks for reminding me. I think it's the gathering pace that I see, which worries me, and the fact that Stonewall is probably looking for a cause to hang their hat on, to remain relevant, and keep the grift going.

All those men who hate women saying no will be looking for a way to keep the hate going.

Yep.

Thanks OP [shorter than BPIACJ😄]
I think there's always been a range of approaches from TRAs, and they don't necessarily abandon one when they move onto another, they keep them all on the go.

At present, some of them saying that TW are 100% women, in at least one infamous case, biological women, while others are being all 'reasonable' and saying 'But of course, nobody can really change sex, so I know I'm still male, but I am a woman because that's how I present'.

Some are demanding third spaces [fourth spaces, the third spaces are accessible toilets which are for disabled people who actually need them, they are not a consolation prize for TWs who are not allowed use the women's], while some won't use them because they are 'outing' (like we didn't know!), or because they are a sell-out, it's the ladies' or nothing.

About a year ago I started noticing a trend which I called 'mirroring': ideas and
phrases that were commonly used by GC feminists started to be taken up by TRAs:
they started calling us 'flat earthers'
they said we were deluded and had been lied to
they said that the Suffragettes had fought for women not to be defined by their sex
they said that Helen Joyce + Genspect had set out a deliberate GC strategy - mirroring the Denton's document.
Behind the ruling: how ‘Sex Matters’ is shaping UK policy on trans rights
they used words like 'safety' 'dignity' and 'comfort' to justify TiMs using women' toilets.

I don't think it lasted very long, but it was a definite 'thing' for a while.

The way my mind works is to cut through the waffle to the basics, and ask 'why?' and 'what is the evidence?' None of these TRA approaches - the threats, the mirroring, the name-calling the persuasion, the attempted bonhomie - can hide the factual void at the centre of all transgender claims and arguments: people cannot change sex.
So why argue for all these elaborate structures on the basis that they can?

It’s reasonable, understandable and inevitable to have wide ranging reactions to this kind of about face. However, I think it’s important not let this kind of behaviour derail us.

Most of us are quite happy to let people with trans identities get on with their lives just like everyone else. What we will not accept is males with trans identities being classified as female/ women and all that comes with this. So long as transwomen and everyone else accept transwomen are transwomen and do not belong in female only provision, there is no reason not to ‘get along’.

Spot on Bridget. There’s still some throwing their toys out of the pram but others have moved on to big pleading eyes and pllllleeeeaaassse.

Marie I think the distorted mirroring has been going on forever (DARVO, rights aren’t top trumps), it’s as though as well as skin walking women they want to wear our arguments as well. It’s a genuinely weird feeling to see an argument for women’s rights on here then, 6-18 m later, hear it adopted by TRAs.

Marie, (so much easier 😀)

The mirroring thing is interesting, isn't it, shades of DARVO.

As to why they continue to build structures on top of shifting sand: why does a toddler keep demanding chocolate biscuits when all there are in the house are custard creams? Why does an abusive man seem to really believe that if she just didn't do that thing he didn't want her to do, he could stop being abusive? Is it deception or a genuine inability to recognize reality?

Although there are many tactics, the "persuading" one seems to be gathering pace and I don't want it to gain any more ground without us noticing. It's the kind of thing Stonewall and activists would run with.

I agree with you.
There is something going on and I haven’t put my finger on it yet.
It appears to be about toilets and also changing rooms to some extent.
I do not understand any woman who’ll give a little leeway over these single sex spaces and I’ve seen that quite a bit ( on X rather than here). The line would be ‘well I’m here more for the rape crisis centres or prisons or sport’.
Not that these are unimportant but are you kidding me?

Of course trans activists will push hard on their ability to access these spaces, it’s where they can gain some sympathy, wobbling, compromise. People do need to pee after all. And locked cubicles! and better design! and let’s just all put our heads together and find solutions! and there’s consultations and proposals and work arounds.There’s a huge push on ‘well who knows anyone’s sex anyway?’ . All women are going to suffer the humiliation of their sex being queried. They see a soft spot there and it’s going to be tried out.

And it is all such complete bullshit.
Adults take responsibility for their own needs, without breaking the law or overriding basic safeguarding.
It is easy. It is simple.
Ask a mum with a pram, a dad with a young daughter, a parent with a child with autism terrified of hand driers, all kinds of people with all kinds of disabilities. …
Nobody has society cater to them perfectly.
You work out your needs, you research solutions, you find out where and what works for you, you advocate for better choices, you get on with life.
There are suitable facilities for men who wish to identify as women everywhere.
It is an imaginary problem.

It absolutely is related to the dynamics of abusive relationships.
Kept in the game for another round of gaslighting fun.
No.

I'm not especially concerned with "getting along." We might reach that point eventually, and it would be much better than constantly looking over our shoulder for the next tactic. But, right now, I'm worried about what all the activists who still won't accept "no" will do, and I want women to be on the lookout for the next attempt to use them to get what men want.

If some women want to "get along" and campaign alongside these men, then they can do that. I won't be one of them.

they want to wear our arguments as well

Excellent observation! I'll use that sometime, if you don't mind.

It is an imaginary problem.

Agree with everything you said. We'll just have to be aware. I'm glad we have the law, but they're not going to go quietly.

I came across a TRA article/guide a while ago that was encouraging use of the mirroring strategy. Unfortunately I've not been able to find it again

@BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth the other tactic that's appearing is trying to make out this will be a bad thing for "cis" women _ how more masculine women will get attacked and thrown out of the ladies. Once again, they think we're daft, I know a woman when I see one

I would encourage everyone to reflect back to male TRA allies that they should be starting 'You can pee next to me' campaigns and arrange to accompany their men who say they are women friends into the male toilets for safety.

Maybe they can make their own badges and hand them out at work?

Absolutely, that's being used more and more now.

It's all misogyny. If they can't use women's toilets and other single-sex spaces anymore, they'll just find another way to manifest their misogyny.

You are most welcome 😊

Also steeped in the usual misogyny - they know who the actual women are as they are the ones TRA#2 want to put all the work in.

What do we want?
just to pee Fourth spaces!
When do we want them?
When you've campaigned for them, got them built and delivered with a shiny bow!

Exactly! If trans-identified men are actually women, and women are supposed to Be Kind and help campaign, then these men can clearly do their own campaigning!

Interesting thread. There's certainly a number of (likely sock puppet) posters with an insincere, oily approach, full of word salad while spouting insults - "good that you can read but such a shame your understanding is so limited". But I suspect they're simply the same bloke with a different name 😆
There are also a number of "I'm as GC as they come but....." who post seemingly reasonable posts and then, as they get challenged, lose their self control and end up spouting full on tra rhetoric and abuse. It's irritating but actually quite funny.

Hopefully they're finally realising that the displays of male violence, rage, spitting, pissing etc displayed by too many transactivists is merely cementing in the public's mind that these activists should be nowhere near children or places where girls and women undress.

Hence the different tactics on here. It's too late as the receipts about the violence and abuse of women are fully documented. But they'll still try 🙄.

Both OP's 'BeKind 2.0' and Marie's 'mirroring' seem accurate to me. Plenty of examples of both. The cynicism and bad faith is off the chart, of course.