Any recommended genderist writers?

[bonfireoftheverities]

"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - John Stuart Mill

This is something I've tried to keep in mind over the last half dozen or so years since I heard TWAW, thought "What?" and fairly quickly found FWR. So I've made sure to read as much as I can take from those who truly believe that men can be women, or if they don't actually believe it (because how can you, deep down?), desperately want it to be true. I say as much as I can take because after a while you've seen and heard it all before, and it never starts being convincing.

The latest pile of nonsense I dove into is this: The End of Trans Rights in the UK Is the Start of Democratic Collapse. Dear god, that almost made my brain melt. The links alone show you that he never strays outside an idiotic bubble (Helen Webberley being the first I clicked into).

Is there anyone you can recommend who makes their case without lying and relying on liars?

What have ‘gendered choices’ to do with this? Oh, right, being trans is a choice. Thanks for clarifying.

But logically all you would be able to demonstrate is that some traits are more common in women. You would not be demonstrating that people with those traits are women.

You could theorise that female mammals have evolved a drive to keep their young alive and male mammals have evolved to have as much sex as possible, but you wouldn't then suggest that a man who cares for his children is a woman.

(and completely anecdotally, many trans widows report that their husbands prioritise their sex lives over the well being of their children, which using this theory would class them squarely as men...)

Yes. Won't somebody think of the other genders?

So again, you’re claiming someone is men or woman depending on how strictly they adhere to regressive sexist stereotypes? How is sex a value based system?

Again, stereotypes & typical behaviours are two very different things. And I'm not claiming they are a man or woman its upto their values of whether sex or gender defines them more personally. Your values clearly consider sex to be a defining identity characteristic others don't.

So who decided these behaviours are “typical”
Noone decides they are typical by virtue of being the most expressed by an overwhelming majority. That's what typical means 'usually'.

"What gendered behaviours are “typical” for women then that would determine if someone is seen as a woman or not?"

The most common choices women make in terms of consumerism, employment, special interest & life choices are examples. You can google them yourself if they aren't obvious to you.

An individuals being an individual vary on what particular inclinations they have in common with women that would make them identify as one so I couldn't speak for all of them.

So you’re saying gender is a load of regressive bollocks that has no meaning, and tries to label people so we stick to sex. Awesome. I agree.

If you’re saying that we should accept men in our spaces depending on their values & life choices, that’s ridiculous. Although I can accept that forcing their presence on women without our consent can count as a male life choice.

Omg …

The context is what an individual personally values more in order to define themselves as in their sex or gender.

Your values clearly consider sex to be a defining identity characteristic others don't.

How truly privileged to regard sex as simply an 'identity' characteristic and to have no concern for the material consequences.

As though one could for instance identify out of an unwanted pregnancy by claiming a different gender.

People can define themselves how they choose. No one else has to go along with them. A man can call himself a pansexual demi greyboi for all none cares. He’s still a male so uses male spaces.

Has anyone told the women in Afghanistan all they need to do is claim that they are really men and they’ll have full freedom again? @EmilyinEverton do you believe they are being oppressed because of their sex or their gender? How do the Taliban know which people to oppress?

But logically all you would be able to demonstrate is that some traits are more common in women. You would not be demonstrating that people with those traits are women.

Yes. But we are talking about how a trans person categorises their inclinations as a result of majority behaviour. Its like saying 'I have more in common with this group than that group therefore I identify more as belonging to it.

You could theorise that female mammals have evolved a drive to keep their young alive and male mammals have evolved to have as much sex as possible, but you wouldn't then suggest that a man who cares for his children is a woman.

Yes but again its upto the individual how they understand where they fit in more on balance.

But individuals have no ability to self define their sex. They might as well self define their age or their height.

Don't you think women in Afghanistan would be defining themselves as being men with a right to an education if that were possible?

Perhaps one could switch sex with one's partner if one were planning to have a baby but had just got a promotion at work?

No I'm not saying that. This is a conversation about how trans people come to identify as the opposite gender to their sex. Any conflicts in rights that flows from that is a separate conversation.

Well, if we’re merely talking about values & life choices related to sex-based stereotypes I have no problem at all with expecting people of all genders & none to use the spaces for their sex.

I’ve just mentioned on another thread that the country carrying out most genital surgery to make people comply with gendered expectations is Iran.

Can we expect a mass exodus, @EmilyinEverton?

so instead of being GNC, they believe that liking something or doing something makes one not one’s sex? How is that any different from those sexists in the 50’s and 60’s who claimed women could not do certain jobs or hobbies? So basically transpeople are just using sexist stereotypes to determine their identity?

Yes but again its upto the individual how they understand where they fit in more on balance.

Women do not have sex specific services because they 'fit in'. They have sex specific services because of the material consequences of sex. if it were just a question of 'fitting in' the service would be mixed sex.

This is beyond dumb & that it continues to get repeated is embarrassing for this forum.

Just because trans people are legitimised as a valid identity doesn't mean their rights supersede others. Conflicting rights need to be managed & practical compromises made. Acknowledgement & rights are two different issues.

But individuals have no ability to self define their sex.

This conversation is about gender not sex.

Well that's annoying: I was completely taken in. I read it with the assumption that he had a DSD such as PAIS, right up to the description of the trial.

As a picture of the TRAs' mindset, it's still the most illuminating I've found, but possibly too annoying to read, even with a sceptical hat on, if it means picking your way around the author's misrepresentations of fact.

But you are the one saying gender stereotypes are related to sex, and that a male knows he’s a woman because he identifies with the “stereotypes” more typical of females. So therefore according to you, sex and gender are related.

But you seem to be suggesting that it is useful of necessary to formally classify people according to gender.

Is the problem that people have been reading too much 2000s YA fiction and want to be sorted?

(Is it really all JKR's fault after all????)

It's gender not sex. And its about categorising oneself with a group who has more in common with you rather than expecting a sex to behave a certain way.

Its gender not sex so your comment makes no sense in this context.

It’s a legitimate question. Are women in Afghanistan oppressed because they adhere to gender stereotypes or because they are female? What do you think would happen if they refused to adhere to gender stereotypes and stated they identified with the stereotypes more typical of men? Would they then be allowed the freedoms men have? If not, why not? If gender stereotypes are related to see, as you claim, why do gender stereotypes differ between cultures. Surely this just confirms they are not related to sex, or they would be universal.

But wouldn’t that presume the “group” woman all had things in common? What things do all women have in common that would make a male think he belonged in that group?