Friend shocks me by suddenly saying he's female. How to handle this?

[MiffedatMP]

A month ago a male co-researcher and friend I have known for 10 years, "came out as trans" by posting a couple of pics of himself on FB wearing eyeliner and studs in his newly pierced ears, and by changing his pronouns to he/she and saying he is a "trans female".

Just four weeks previously we spent the whole afternoon together and he did not breathe a word about this. He is 45, tall, broad-shouldered, slim-hipped and has angular, very masculine facial features. He looked and acted exactly the same as I have always known him: completely male in looks, speech, mannerisms, dress, etc. Therefore his announcement has come as a complete shock and, to be honest, at first I thought he was playing a prank.

Later this year we are supposed to begin a joint project which entails working closely together for months and I just don't know how to handle the situation. I've been wondering how long I can avoid ever referring to him by any pronoun - easy when it's just the two of us but the moment I have to refer to him as "he" or "her" to another person I am going to have to make a choice. I'm already worrying about this eventuality because it is bound to happen. Also on the project itself... there may be some wording which refers to him by a pronoun and again, I have to make a choice. I don't see how I can get out of this awkward situation. If I refer to him as "she" then I am sort of announcing that I am going along with this nonsense, and if I call him "he" then obviously this is going to cause massive fall out between us. He might storm out and the project abandoned, possibly after many weeks of work.

Even if I can manage to avoid the pronoun thing, how can I stay silent or dodge the subject if he looks me right in the eye and tells me he's now female? He hasn't yet changed his name but if he does I just don't think I can bring myself to call him by a female name.

I thought the easiest thing would be to just cancel the project, but that would make it look like I cancelled "just because he's trans", making me look like the baddie, losing his friendship forever and risking him smearing my good name around our small town, among our many mutual acquaintances, with goodness knows what social/business/friendship repercussions. Ditto if I replace him with someone else - I'd have to give him a reason, which, again, will get me into some kind of trouble, name-called, cancelled, hated because there are quite a few punitive activists where I live.

I understand now why people go along with it - because the alternative is life-changing, possibly life-ruining.

I just really, really wish he hadn't done this because it's made things so awkward.

What would you do?

Honestly, can't believe I've been deleted for stating what so many male trans people have opined on endlessly in print. It's not as if it's a secret.

A male colleague/friend suddenly announced at 50 something that they were a trans woman. It started fairly low key, in a forgive me, no worries, check out my nail polish way. Wrong name/ pronoun laugh it off. Yes he loves all those 90s league of gentleman, it crowd, black adder trans representation.

Well it's escalated and noted incidents a long time ago to suing work over policies, complaints about close colleagues accidentally misgendering, of course toilets. Cutting off friends and family and intimidating and aggressive behaviour to an elderly service user who used his previous name.

It's very unpleasant and grew quickly from a easy going eye liner start.

@FarewelltotheHorse

I think there's a word for it when you judge an entire group by the actions of it's worst members, I'm just trying to remember what it is...

Oh yes. Prejudice.

You would help your argument if you spoke with greater specificity on what this alleged 'prejudice' is. It's not unreasonable to be worried that a trans coworker will be aggressive about enforcing pronouns or how he is talked about and seek organisational sanction against individuals who he thinks are insufficiently deferential - that is broadly the position of trans rights organisation and public trans individuals. Past attacks on GC individuals are still widely justified and there is zero accommodation for GC views within trans advocacy which is doctrinally ridged with respect to TWAW.

In addition there are (ex)spouses of trans identifying men associations with hair raising accounts of narcissistic spouses who concealed their narcissism and maintained long lists of grievances against their wives of perceived gender slights, before and after transition, and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviour. So, level of previous personal intimacy is not a good indicator. That's not to say that all trans identifying males are narcissistic or abusive (in the same way than men in general shouldn't be considered that way) but the possibility exists and the OP needs to protect herself against it.

Finally, it doesn't require a great deal of imagination to suppose that some people would be highly offended about a heterosexual man suddenly declaring himself a lesbian and asserting that he is in the same category as a natal female homosexual and real lesbians might find close working proximity with such an individual problematic.

The situation is far from clear cut, but I certainly wouldn't suggest dialogue or engagement. I would instead advise extreme caution and taking a defensive stance.

Hi OP - took a break from this thread and have come back to see there is an attempt to hijack your thread by TRAs.

Just a reminder that this forum is the Feminism and Women's Rights forum (sub title by MNHQ as sex and gender) and say you should ignore all the posters who dont think women have rights.

You, as we all do, have the right to say you dont think people can change sex, and additionally you dont think any man can claim to be female and relate as a female because growing they did not experience the sexism that all women experience.

It is no different than people of colour not accepting that someone like Rachel Dolezal has changed race and has a shared experience as theirs. They dont, and no more does a trans woman share women's experiences.

And it is typical that those who think men have more rights should insist you should be "kind", you should respect him.

And not one of them has said as a woman you have rights and they are equal to men, and consequently you do NOT have to pander to his fantasy.

Its just ridiculous. Dont even bother responding.

Given the opportunity you are creating for him, it is an example of his arrogance that he hasn't been in touch with you.

I would go along with an earlier suggestion of contacting him and say you have seen his online post and are concerned because he must be aware you are a sex based realist ie gender critical, and does he feel able to work with someone who has these beliefs as how you interact with people is based on the reality that nobody can change sex?

It is your life. It is your project. And it must be disappointing to think you may not be able to bring it into reality because the person you thought you were going to partner with, will be expecting you to deny who you really are.

Trans rights are not superior to women's rights.

This is the problem between what used to be those who were truely radical as gender benders. ie they knew their sex and that it couldn't be changed. But were wanting to challenge gender norms (ie social constructed dress codes etc.) whereas current trans culture is actually reactionary because is basically says a man cannot be feminine or a woman masculine.

My only concern for you, because as I understand it, you have not entered into a formal agreement with this man, but have discussed a potential project which is your idea.

Not sure of the way that this is done, but I would immediately take out the copy right or whatever it is called of you idea.

Somebody who is so wrapped up in himself, and hasn't contacted you when it has been discussed you are going into a partnership indicates someone who is not a trustworthy or reliable person to be involved with, whether on a buisness or a personal level.

I'd take the rest of the Bank Holiday weekend to just have a good time.

And then next week just see how you feel then.

Excellent response, @IwantToRetire 👏

Completely agree, too, about making sure you own that idea.

I've been involved in a hobby area with people who have required special treatment because of their feelings (not trans) . And inevitably you can't do enough for them and it all ends in tears. Now I avoid anyone who requires everyone else to dance around them / admire them . I'm not talking about accommodating disabilities Which any normal person would try and do.

Is there a chance that as you are a lesbian. If he claims to be a woman you may be sexually interested in him?

To be fair,I’d struggle to remain friends with someone sexist any misogynistic enough to believe eyeliner and pierced ears make someone a woman, or that a male can know what it is like to “be female”.

'but am terrified that he may decide to make my life a living hell if I don't pretend to play along.'

Yeah you don't need that kind of hassle. Don't cancel it. Just put it on indefinite hold citing vague reasons. What's he going to do?

I think this is a familiar pattern.

It's too risky for you to talk to him about your views; he will have been radicalised by the online community an you will become the enemy. I think you need to wriggle out of this project quietly, without saying why. Sorry

I don't see that. They're not asking you to give a sworn affidavit that you believe their chromosomes have magically changed from xy to xx. It's more analogous to covering my shoulders in church even though I'm not Catholic. It's just being respectful.

I don't see how that follows unless her colleague was making her change her own pronouns. When we interact with the people around us on a daily basis, we assume gender based on cultural signifiers, even though that may mean we get it wrong sometimes, but that's nothing to do with our own views or beliefs about gender, it's just the practicality of getting by in a society. I know I'm a woman, and what other people may call themselves doesn’t invalidate that.
I do understand why it's a fraught topic, but it seems hugely overblown imo.

I think there's a word for it when you judge an entire group by the actions of it's worst members, I'm just trying to remember what it is...

It's safeguarding.

Yes, we judge entire groups (men) by the actions of its worst members.

This is why we have separate male and female facilities in the first place.

And this is why we do DBS checks for people who want to work with children and other people with vulnerabilities.

It's not rocket science.

Just asking on here shows how you will be expected to accept the ridiculous. I'd be not going ahead with this project now.

It's a shame it's like this. I'm sure if he'd said he wanted to dress in women's clothing and wear make-up, it'd be fine, who cares? But it's the level of expected conformity that is the problem. He's always going to be a man.

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone should be sacked for it or anything, but if I asked you to call me Nicky and you insisted on calling me Nicole (for example), I might think you were rude. That's ok too. Like you said, people aren't always going to agree, and there are social repercussions for all our actions in terms of people's opinions. For her potentially, and certainly for her friend who she's now terrified of and thinks may be radicalised with zero evidence.

What I wrote a bit earlier covers exactly this. Most relevant part in bold. I hope people don't mind me pasting it all here.

I disagree about the “you” problem.

Before trans ideology demanded that women deny their sex and sacrifice their rights, protections and language itself, I’d have been ok in OP’s position.
But now? As long as working with a trans person requires supporting their perspective of themselves as female (or male) - and note that the OP does say “female”, not “woman” - that requires a compromise from another. You implicitly acknowledge this yourself in your references to courtesy, and the apparent necessity of you theorising about pronouns to show it.

Gestures like these have an accumulated social and cultural weight - a meaning that goes beyond mere words. To call your boss “Sir,” is to accept the hierarchy of your company: “I acknowledge your seniority.” And this is where the issue is - not with OP herself,

To call an trans woman “she” used merely to signify, “I wish to show, in the isolated instances of my using your chosen pronoun, that I would like you to feel comfortable.” And that was a reasonable request. But now, that gentle gesture of the past has come to be associated with supporting a movement that denies the validity of who the OP is herself, to a viscerally distressing degree. And that has actual concrete consequences form women’s rights. No wonder she finds it degrading - I do, too.

I suspect that whether or not you do depends on how au fait you are with the demands of this ideology and the fight to retain our protections in law. But, regardless, it’s not a problem with the OP, but very much a problem with a trans activism that is making the accommodations many of us were previously ready or even keen to offer all but incompatible with our own rights and autonomy. And that, as such, is harming the more vulnerable trans individuals, too.

To blame the OP for that harm is to massively oversimplify this issue.

Whatever you think of the arguments above, though, I can tell you for a fact that I personally find it degrading and quite distressing to call a male "she" after everything I've seen and read and experienced in this debate. I don't support misgendering either (at least in a context such as this one - crime, prisons and sports, my views are different). But a neutral approach - "they" / names only respects both sides. In a situation in which both individuals feel their identity and rights are at stake, this feels fairest.

And the fact that only the one side is typically validated in this perception, whereas the other's (women's) equivalent concerns are typically dismissed as overblown (if we're lucky!) does also tend to reinforce for me which side is perhaps the more overlooked and undervalued right now.

I completely understand your trepidation, OP. Your friend is going through a seismic shift in his life, out of the blue, and you have every right to be concerned. You are about to embark on a new project working very closely with him and if he were going through any kind of massive change in circumstances, I’m sure you would have reservations. The fact that this is a trans issue is almost a red herring, because the point is that this upheaval has revealed aspects of his character you were unaware of and you have every right to be concerned. It’s clearly a shock to you and you are probably wondering how well you really know your friend if there were no signs until he blurted it out on Facebook and hasn’t even had any direct communication with you.

The fact that he is trans is unfortunately a good reason to be worried if you are gender critical. Recent history shows us that women are right to fear censure (and worse) from trans activists, and whilst your friend might never have a problem with your opinions, you don’t know how his transition is going to progress and what he might expect from you. Hell, you had no idea he thought he might be a woman until the eyeliner and earring reveal ten years into your relationship, so what happens next is a big unknown.

It’s frankly insulting and disingenuous for some posters to come here and accuse you of being transphobic and unprofessional when it is the actions of trans-rights movement over the past few years that have led us to the situation we are in now. Courts have affirmed that your gender critical beliefs are WORIADS, a woman is an adult human female, but we are still at risk of being cancelled for not being ‘kind’. So do what is right for you and protect yourself as best you can.

It is obvious what the prejudice here is, literally all we know about this person from the OP is that they have come out as trans via a facebook post, and look at all the assumptions and assertions that are being made about him on this thread by people who don't even know who he is, including yourself.

In addition there are (ex)spouses of trans identifying men associations with hair raising accounts of narcissistic spouses who concealed their narcissism and maintained long lists of grievances against their wives of perceived gender slights, before and after transition, and engaged in psychologically abusive behaviour.

OP is not this person's wife.

Finally, it doesn't require a great deal of imagination to suppose that some people would be highly offended about a heterosexual man suddenly declaring himself a lesbian and asserting that he is in the same category as a natal female homosexual and real lesbians might find close working proximity with such an individual problematic.

OP has not mentioned this individual's sexuality or that they have made any reference to it, so again you're wading in with another massive and unfounded assumption about this person just because they are trans.

The situation is far from clear cut, but I certainly wouldn't suggest dialogue or engagement. I would instead advise extreme caution and taking a defensive stance.

This person is OP's friend. If you cannot have dialogue and engagement with a friend you cannot have it with anybody, and I don't personally want to be part of a GC movement that holds dialogue and engagement with trans people are impossible - if nothing else, this dooms the movement to failure since trans people are not about to simply disappear and if we cannot find ways to live with them in the world, we're creating our own problems, much as frankly I feel OP is. There is certainly no way forward if we simply treat trans people as monsters by default, that isn't a reasonable position, it's a kneejerk, reactionary, prejudiced position that is rooted in being anti-trans, not pro women's rights.

I wouldn't have any problem with your name.

I would only have a problem if you wanted me to use opposite sex pronouns.

Can you explain to me why I should call a man 'she'?

I haven't read the entire thread but I've read all your posts OP. I agree, not a problem if just a case of him wearing cliched female clothes and looking a bit Dame Edna, but a big problem if you're meant to go along with the fantasy, and if there's drama if you say the wrong word.

I also wonder about long term, after the project fruition - will this man be involved with the commercial side? I mean, would be have to be there for commercial presentations or similar? And then all the potential clients having to also play along with the fantasy. It might be fine in the context of woke corporate environments or woo local authorities, and there are even non-binary barristers who wear make up and look stupid, but maybe less productive when you're trying to be taken seriously selling a product.

@FarewelltotheHorse

It is obvious what the prejudice here is, literally all we know about this person from the OP is that they have come out as trans via a facebook post.

It's not at all obvious that it's prejudice, that's why I suggested you make your charges specific rather than general.

so again you're wading in with another massive and unfounded assumptiom

The large majority of transwomen are heterosexual males, that's drawn from clinical studies. So, it's not a fantastical possibility. But I wasn't asserting it, merely noting that if it were true (we don't know one way or the other) then we would naturally be sympathetic with someone made queasy by working with the man in question.

My greater point is caution is more than justified about a man who suddenly declares a gender identity in a work place situation for a women who is serious about not self-abnegating her gender critical views - though I do somewhat regret my post as @IwantToRetire's post is much more straightforward and clear about why this is a silly discussion.

• Because it’s courteous and respectful to call people what they prefer to be called
• Because pronouns are a feature of language not biology, and there are plenty of examples both in English and outside of it of gendered pronouns being used to refer to things other than biological females
• Because it doesn’t feel to me like calling a transwoman “she” is the same as being forced to believe she has literally changed sex. I refer to my son's teddy as "he", this doesn't mean I think it has sentience or a penis
• Because I recognise it’s genuinely offensive and upsetting to some people to be misgendered and I don’t enjoy offending and upsetting people who I otherwise bear no malice towards, nor do I see any advantage in doing so
• Because trans people and gender critical people do have to co-exist in the world and that requires some degree of compromise; I'm happy to respect what is important to them if they respect what's important to me. Pretending trans people don't exist or can be made to stop existing or that we can avoid ever encountering or interacting with them is neither productive or realistic
• Because like it or not it’s effectively impossible to have a decent professional, social or familial relationship with a trans person if you deliberately misgender them - you may not like this fact, but it is a fact, and it's up to you how to choose to respond to that - my decision is that it would be to my own disadvantage if I chose to limit my circle of acquaintance in this way (as OP’s situation demonstrates, since she seems likely to lose both a lucrative business opportunity and a friendship, leaving her poorer in two different senses)
• Because quite honestly I think it makes the gender critical movement look bad in many people's eyes if we are deliberately rude and offensive and appear incapable of what many view as the most basic of courtesies when we interact with trans people