The liminality of sex perception, sex-based spaces and bodily autonomy.

[polypostwonder]

This thread continues a discussion between BonfireLady (sorry, I wanted to tag you but the system says your username doesn't currently exist) and I on biological sex vs perceived/observed sex in https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5530455-us-to-open-worlds-first-childrens-detransition-clinic-texas-hospital-to-offer-free-services-reversing-the-effects-of-gender-affirming-treatments?page=10&reply=152406258

She has requested I answer the following two questions:

1. would you consider that a viable way forward is for you to self-exclude from women's spaces and instead either advocate for third spaces for anyone to use (e.g. unisex facilities in addition to single-sex) or (probably your least preferred) use the men's?
2. would you support a restriction on anyone under 18 (or 25?) making permanent changes to their body, to match it with their perception of their "gender"? Similar to other restrictions on permanent body changes.

I believe I have previously answered them both. My answers today are superficially the same, but I have better thought out my answers (maybe?). To do this though, I need to share some assumptions.

In the previous thread, I believe there was somewhat of an agreement on the following statements:

1. People can identify a man when dressed in clothes 'traditionally associated' with women. Clothes are superficial to sex.
2. People look at other people and perceive their sex. People are not identifying the gametes/sry/chromosomes/other unobservable immutable biologic factor inside another person.
3. Assumptions about sex are made based on a person’s sex characteristics amongst other observable cues.
4. Pretty much every person in the whole world "exists within the expectations of sex categories". Very rarely it's unclear.
5. If a person exists within the expectations of sex categories, then socially they are treated as that sex whether they wish to be or not.

Building on those statements and previous discussion, some additional thoughts:

1. ‘Biological sex’ is defined by a person’s gametes/chromosomes/sry/other unobservable immutable biologic factor. This cannot be changed.
2. ’Observable sex’ is based upon the perception of sex characteristics rather than known biological sex and influences the placement and treatment of people in social sex categories. Perception is not under control of the observed, nor is it a demand of others.
3. Observable sex can be heavily influenced by biological sex and sex-based function. But sex-based function is not a requirement for the perception of sex.
4. Women’s rights are a cultural accommodation to rebalance access to society and ensure health, fair treatment, safety and/or dignity. Not all women require or access every right, but these rights are a vital benefit to women as a class.
5. Users of a culturally defined space for members of one sex may feel comfort, privacy or protection through separation from non-users. But all users share an equal right to feel comfort, privacy or protection.
6. Misogyny is not biologically based. It is a prejudice directed at women’s observable sex. Sexism can be biologically directed, but it can also be directed at members of an observable sex.
7. Sex realists believe every person should live and be treated by society according to their biological sex, no exceptions.
8. Trans people have a wide range of beliefs and goals. They do not share a single motivation.
9. Better quality research should be done with trans people of all ages.

I think BonfireLady is correct in saying each of us sees the other's "belief" as non-sensical and our own as position as factual. I'm hoping we can discuss this from a somewhat sensical space.

This is priceless.

You want women to accept that "women" is a cultural concept including all female identified trans men, but you yourself won't tell them that you are one because they make you feel uncomfortable.

I missed this post.

I was fucking drugged and I was fucking unconscious. Jesus fucking christ.

I think something like Narcissism nails it.

No, I’m saying that as you don’t have female biology you can’t have the physical experience of being female.

You won’t have the physical experience of being male either.

and yet you spend your time misleading people about who you are thereby removing their choices

I think we have been so dehumanised in this poster's mind that they think they can make wild arsed blanket statements about 'no one cares' and he thinks it is accurate and logical.

It is like the claims that not one female person has EVER realised that he was male without him telling them.

Well, if a person dehumanises those that do care if he is male and do realise that he is male without telling them, then they can make such claims and still remain in their bubble of subjective reality. Because no one who notices he is male or cares that he is male is not part of the population that he considers human.

It seems to be the way this is being done.

I am very sorry that happened to you. I’m not allowed to describe my rape here.

surely that experience would make you more aware of not crossing a boundary? Make you more aware of lack of consent? Make you more determined to obey the law?

i Can’t fucking answer your fucking post with a description of my fucking rape because it is deleted as too fucking upsetting for others to read.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yes, because taking responsibility for misleading people in thinking you are female would be something that I don't believe you will ever be able to do.

Nobody should be discussing their trauma.

That is the fucking point.

It actually should be irrelevant. No female person should have to disclose why they need female single sex provisions. No male person should have to disclose trauma to convince any person that they are in any way a female person. A male person's trauma does not give him any right at all to be in a female single sex provision, regardless of his gender identity.

How do you know?

I mean, I assume they use female reference ranges for me, but I've never actually asked or checked test results to confirm it.

That is material reality, it is not the belief of a group of people.

It is the majority of the world's understanding of material reality.

I’m so upset. I am not allowed to discuss my rape and was told by mnhq NOT to describe it because it was too upsetting for others. So my trauma means fuck all.

but a trans woman’s trauma is different somehow.

fuck

Exactly. HUGE logical gap. Wonder believes he feels like "all the other women" and yet also says he can't know how anyone else feels.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm saying that it would be surprising and unwise for medics to treat someone as if they were actually the opposite sex, because many issues are sex specific.

There are a lot of terrible decisions being made in the field of so-called 'gender care'. And have been for a long time.

Lili Elbe's horrific operations were all performed by doctors.

This is moralisation by people who are incapable of understanding what I've been through.

Holy fuck, call the Irony Gods, I've got the best one yet!

Yes, the double standards are clear.

No, but you desire to impose your value system upon us. You desire to redefine "woman" as something other than us, forcing us to submit to reframing our self knowledge, our experiences, our history for your benefit or give up the name "woman".

Most of my previous posts about my rape have been removed also. I am not allowed to post about my trauma either. I empathise with you, but I'm still fucking pissed off.

Literally several women on this thread have told you they care.

You have no idea. You are retraumatising me and women like me every time you use a women’s single sex space. You don’t care. Don’t lie.

those were women who don't buy into chappie's bullshit though, so they don't count

100% this.

If nobody cares, then why the elaborate lies?

Yes. It's gross.

I know.

It is like we haven't been having the exact same discussions with this poster since February.

This hypocritical statement is just the cream of the bounteous crop.

Here is a hint: PolyPostWonder - you have no fucking understanding of what female people have been through. None at all. Yet you continue to claim that you do.

Outstanding hypocrisy.