The liminality of sex perception, sex-based spaces and bodily autonomy.

[polypostwonder]

This thread continues a discussion between BonfireLady (sorry, I wanted to tag you but the system says your username doesn't currently exist) and I on biological sex vs perceived/observed sex in https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5530455-us-to-open-worlds-first-childrens-detransition-clinic-texas-hospital-to-offer-free-services-reversing-the-effects-of-gender-affirming-treatments?page=10&reply=152406258

She has requested I answer the following two questions:

1. would you consider that a viable way forward is for you to self-exclude from women's spaces and instead either advocate for third spaces for anyone to use (e.g. unisex facilities in addition to single-sex) or (probably your least preferred) use the men's?
2. would you support a restriction on anyone under 18 (or 25?) making permanent changes to their body, to match it with their perception of their "gender"? Similar to other restrictions on permanent body changes.

I believe I have previously answered them both. My answers today are superficially the same, but I have better thought out my answers (maybe?). To do this though, I need to share some assumptions.

In the previous thread, I believe there was somewhat of an agreement on the following statements:

1. People can identify a man when dressed in clothes 'traditionally associated' with women. Clothes are superficial to sex.
2. People look at other people and perceive their sex. People are not identifying the gametes/sry/chromosomes/other unobservable immutable biologic factor inside another person.
3. Assumptions about sex are made based on a person’s sex characteristics amongst other observable cues.
4. Pretty much every person in the whole world "exists within the expectations of sex categories". Very rarely it's unclear.
5. If a person exists within the expectations of sex categories, then socially they are treated as that sex whether they wish to be or not.

Building on those statements and previous discussion, some additional thoughts:

1. ‘Biological sex’ is defined by a person’s gametes/chromosomes/sry/other unobservable immutable biologic factor. This cannot be changed.
2. ’Observable sex’ is based upon the perception of sex characteristics rather than known biological sex and influences the placement and treatment of people in social sex categories. Perception is not under control of the observed, nor is it a demand of others.
3. Observable sex can be heavily influenced by biological sex and sex-based function. But sex-based function is not a requirement for the perception of sex.
4. Women’s rights are a cultural accommodation to rebalance access to society and ensure health, fair treatment, safety and/or dignity. Not all women require or access every right, but these rights are a vital benefit to women as a class.
5. Users of a culturally defined space for members of one sex may feel comfort, privacy or protection through separation from non-users. But all users share an equal right to feel comfort, privacy or protection.
6. Misogyny is not biologically based. It is a prejudice directed at women’s observable sex. Sexism can be biologically directed, but it can also be directed at members of an observable sex.
7. Sex realists believe every person should live and be treated by society according to their biological sex, no exceptions.
8. Trans people have a wide range of beliefs and goals. They do not share a single motivation.
9. Better quality research should be done with trans people of all ages.

I think BonfireLady is correct in saying each of us sees the other's "belief" as non-sensical and our own as position as factual. I'm hoping we can discuss this from a somewhat sensical space.

Out in the world you are lucky enough to be unambiguously just accepted as a woman.

That doesn't mean you are not biologically male.

I am not accepted, I am not tolerated, I am not humoured, I am not believed, I just am.

jeez louise

you'd be amazed at how little I've talked about my periods to women I don't know well

a man role playing as a woman talking to women he doesn't know well about his 'periods'. yeesh

if the poor women this chap wangs onto about his periods and reproductive system don't know what sex he is I'd be jolly surprised

To be fair Bernard, that was in reply to a question from Imdunfer

On something as fundamental to being female as menstruation, then I believe that allowing people to think that you are a woman with a medical problem rather than a man most certainly counts as lying by omission.

I understand why you feel that way, but I feel differently.

fair enough. apologies if i've misconstrued the response. i read the first page and couldn't face reading another 14 pages of inconsistent bullshit

In an existentialist sense maybe "you just are".

But the fact remains that you are a male who very luckily is able to live a completely embedded life as a woman.

Incidentally, curiousity again, when you meet a female identified trans person who is clearly male by birth, do you tell them?

You said on another thread something to the effect of that you supported my right to single sex spaces. I’ve been clear that means no one who was born male.

so you lied.

Also fair enough! 😄

I've met a few trans women since transition and as time has advanced I've learned not come out to them.

They always think they should be the exception who gets to use the women’s single sex space. India Willoughby & D Hayton (what happened to him?) are / were the same.

Trans women are just one homogenous manly group of men who ever maned.

Legally yes. That is correct

Why?

Am I wrong? You don’t think you should be the exception who gets to use our spaces?

also from a biological perspective

regardless of what weird stories you tell various poor women about your reproductive organs

Various reasons, but it tends to get very uncomfortable.

Who cares if they're manly? I've been raped by "effeminate" men and by androgynous men. They can be the most beautiful "womanly" men in the world. They're still men.

I believe my transition experience was exceptional. I also believe that it isn't itself a qualification for anything. I am being asked now, after more than 40 years as a woman. why I believe I should now be using women's spaces. How I feel about that has nothing to do with anyone else.

Of course you do. Because you’re male and you’ve no idea how it feels to live with female biology.

The same female biology that defines us as women, and differentiates you as a male.

Gender critical people believe everything I feel is because I am a male. It's part of their deal.

You are.

The Narcissism is strong in this one.

Exceptional indeed. No, you are a common or garden boundary crossing man, the same as all the rest. Not special at all.