The liminality of sex perception, sex-based spaces and bodily autonomy.

[polypostwonder]

This thread continues a discussion between BonfireLady (sorry, I wanted to tag you but the system says your username doesn't currently exist) and I on biological sex vs perceived/observed sex in https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5530455-us-to-open-worlds-first-childrens-detransition-clinic-texas-hospital-to-offer-free-services-reversing-the-effects-of-gender-affirming-treatments?page=10&reply=152406258

She has requested I answer the following two questions:

1. would you consider that a viable way forward is for you to self-exclude from women's spaces and instead either advocate for third spaces for anyone to use (e.g. unisex facilities in addition to single-sex) or (probably your least preferred) use the men's?
2. would you support a restriction on anyone under 18 (or 25?) making permanent changes to their body, to match it with their perception of their "gender"? Similar to other restrictions on permanent body changes.

I believe I have previously answered them both. My answers today are superficially the same, but I have better thought out my answers (maybe?). To do this though, I need to share some assumptions.

In the previous thread, I believe there was somewhat of an agreement on the following statements:

1. People can identify a man when dressed in clothes 'traditionally associated' with women. Clothes are superficial to sex.
2. People look at other people and perceive their sex. People are not identifying the gametes/sry/chromosomes/other unobservable immutable biologic factor inside another person.
3. Assumptions about sex are made based on a person’s sex characteristics amongst other observable cues.
4. Pretty much every person in the whole world "exists within the expectations of sex categories". Very rarely it's unclear.
5. If a person exists within the expectations of sex categories, then socially they are treated as that sex whether they wish to be or not.

Building on those statements and previous discussion, some additional thoughts:

1. ‘Biological sex’ is defined by a person’s gametes/chromosomes/sry/other unobservable immutable biologic factor. This cannot be changed.
2. ’Observable sex’ is based upon the perception of sex characteristics rather than known biological sex and influences the placement and treatment of people in social sex categories. Perception is not under control of the observed, nor is it a demand of others.
3. Observable sex can be heavily influenced by biological sex and sex-based function. But sex-based function is not a requirement for the perception of sex.
4. Women’s rights are a cultural accommodation to rebalance access to society and ensure health, fair treatment, safety and/or dignity. Not all women require or access every right, but these rights are a vital benefit to women as a class.
5. Users of a culturally defined space for members of one sex may feel comfort, privacy or protection through separation from non-users. But all users share an equal right to feel comfort, privacy or protection.
6. Misogyny is not biologically based. It is a prejudice directed at women’s observable sex. Sexism can be biologically directed, but it can also be directed at members of an observable sex.
7. Sex realists believe every person should live and be treated by society according to their biological sex, no exceptions.
8. Trans people have a wide range of beliefs and goals. They do not share a single motivation.
9. Better quality research should be done with trans people of all ages.

I think BonfireLady is correct in saying each of us sees the other's "belief" as non-sensical and our own as position as factual. I'm hoping we can discuss this from a somewhat sensical space.

There might not be a "grand scheme" to deceive; nevertheless, the result is to deceive.

PPW, I'm curious. I don't think I know any woman who hasn't at some stage in their lives got involved in conversations about heavy bleeding, tampons vs pads, period pains, hormone swings around periods, etc.

You must have been involved in these conversations with women who thought you were a woman., What did you say? Did you sit there silent and allow them to believe you just didn't want to talk about menstruation? Did you lie and give a pseudo medical reason why you never had a period? Did you pretend you knew what they were talking about?

As wonderful as it is regularly read such informative and well rounded contributions on here, I think we're all wasting our time with posters like this.
He will never alter his position - it means imploding everything he thought he knew about himself.
In those circumstances, I might dig my heels in too.

But, I'd like to think that as actual reality seems to be coming back into fashion now, things will change.

It's been made abundantly clear what the law is. Well, always was. Except now it's been well and truly clarified, headline news and all.

There'll hopefully be fewer children being led into puberty blockers and the like (in the UK anyway) going forward, so therefore these "passing" trans women unicorns won't exist as some sort of "oh but what about the weak men who were boys, they're so harmless" crap

I will add, I couldn't give a shit about the puberty thing. Still a bloke.

It'll ONLY be men who have experienced a male puberty playing pantomime, and I think it's pretty much a universal understanding that fully grown blokes don't belong anywhere near women that may be undressed or vulnerable.
Or indeed, any of our other shit that's meant for just us.

"I see it as a fight against a system that believed I had a purpose based on how I looked."

Being a female person has NOTHING to do with how someone looks. I would suggest that if any person told you this as a child, they were egregious in doing so.

However, you are now an adult. It is time for you to understand that your own actions have a negative impact on female people, a group you keep telling us you identify as.

You are not female and you never were. Being female is not about whether someone has a tick list of modifications.

"I am just living. There is no grand scheme to deceive."

It is irrelevant whether it is your intention or not.

When you do not disclose your male sex when it is important to, such as access to any female single sex provision, whether it is toilets or a short lift, you are engaging in deception even if it is not deliberate (although it is a deliberate choice).

I am not allowed to have experiences that contradict gender critical beliefs

I haven't seen you describe any actual experiences which contradict gender critical beliefs.

You describe feelings that don't fit gender critical beliefs but gender critical beliefs don't conflict with the fact that you live your life presenting very successfully as a woman. Some men can.

All of my close friends have known I've never menstruated. They also know I have no uterus or ovaries and that I've been on HRT since I was a teen. They have known this and have discussed all sorts of things with and around me. The women who don't know me well, I say that I've never had a period.

Literally, no one cares. Gender critical people idealise a world that does, obsessively so. I am not responsible for your feelings or living within your value system.

I care because I’m a victim of abuse.

You've spent days on this forum in conversation with people who do care.

That's an incredibly dismissive thing to write.

It's just pointless.
As long as women continue to be "othered" as gender critical/sex realist, this poster can ignore what they're telling him.

We ARE those women, and we DO CARE.

If it was directed at people in this forum, I agree. But out in the world, I am unambiguously just a woman.

No one born male is a woman.

You are gender critical. I don't need to tell you that this is your belief.

This is another directly contradictory statement.

Women are telling you they care. Yet you dismiss this with ‘no one cares’. You even admitted that no one knew you were male when you received the acclaim on a short list. So you actually have no fucking idea despite your overly confident claim.

I think that is a very good indication of the degree of awareness and consideration you have of the people around you.

But well done. Thank you for confirming that you actually don’t consider anyone but yourself with the “I am not responsible for your feelings or living within your value system.”

You say you are not responsible? You certainly don’t take responsibility for deception or being truthful.

No you are not. You were born male.

Aaaand... we're back to that. Surprise surprise.

It's so easy to "other" the women on this board.

Oh....but be sure not to "other" trans people though. For that is offensive.

And the women who don't know you well don't ask "how come? ", and you allow them to believe that it's because of some malfunction in your reproductive system that you are too embarrassed to talk about. And while that's possibly true, it's also lying by omission.

Yes. " I was born without them" wouldn't be a lie.

This

The double standards are excruciating

If no one cares, why do you hide your birth sex? Why not disclose it to your employer, friends, and acquaintances if they don't care that you were born a boy?

There's just no shits given. At all.

There's loads of people in life who behave in the most antisocial, selfish, self serving ways.
This guy is just one of them.

I think the law being clarified in such a public way will go a long way to ensure that the general public knows what is and isn't acceptable.

Add in the higher awareness of unethical medical approaches to confused children, I think it'll be ok in the end.

Plus, my 13 year old and pretty much everyone he knows thinks this is all so unbelievably boring. As do my late teenaged family members and their friends
No one gives a shit what you identify as.
Literally.

I shouldn't be obligated to go deep into detail about childhood medical issues every time someone enters into informal chat with me. That I choose not to disclose the issue with everyone I meet does not mean I am lying by omission.

Well yes, you can be a woman, but unfortunately that means those of us females who were formerly known as women cannot be women, as we are female and you are male. So you are not a woman amongst women, you’re a “woman” amongst some group whose name you have appropriated.