Cambridge Union debate - This House Believes modern LGBTQ+ activism fails its community

[ItsCoolForCats]

I'm starting this thread mainly so I can post this link because Maeve Halligan is a force to be reckoned with:

https://x.com/i/status/2055119527914938412

They lost the debate, which was to be expected given the state of universities on this issue, but Thea Sewell said they got a respectable number of votes. Hopefully they have planted some seeds in people's minds.

Other speakers were Buck Angel and Helen Webberley (for the other side).

Full debate is here https://www.youtube.com/live/wE0JY9d7f-w?si=4ZIVmcxyevo0DQvB

‘Trans’ and ‘lesbian’ are both broadly understood. Lesbian means a woman who is attracted to other women, trans is someone who adopts the stereotypes of the opposite sex. I can’t imagine I’m alone in assuming that a trans lesbian would be a female who is attracted to women and presents themselves as masculine and likes people to use male pronouns.

Both the words 'trans' & 'lesbian' are broadly accepted words so its not a stretch for 'trans lesbian' to be broadly understood

Not really. You could say that 'trans' and 'woman' are understood, so everyone knows what 'transwoman' means. But many people think a 'transwoman' is a woman who thinks she's a man, so these terms aren't universally well understood. There seems to be a deliberate obfuscation in the terminology.

It might be helpful to make clearer that 'trans' means 'the opposite of'. So a 'transwoman' is the opposite of a woman (a man).

How would this work with 'trans lesbian'? Is the opposite of a lesbian a heterosexual woman (opposite sexual orientation)? Or a heterosexual man (opposite sex)? Or maybe a lesbian who wants to be a man (so the trans refers to transgender)?

If there was any logic to the terminology, that's exactly what trans lesbian would mean. And a trans woman would be a woman who wants to be a man.

Many young people have yet to encounter the world fully, once they become adults and enter the world of work, and leave behind the group of school friends that currently make up they're whole world, their attitude and lexicon's will change to suit their circumstances.

If they use words that just get blank looks, they start using words that people understand. 'Trans' lesbian will never catch on outside the subculture that thinks it's 'cool'. A word that was quite 'hip' at one time amongst the young and now has no common usage, because that's the thing with slang it is forever changing, unlike words that have been coined to refer to something that is unchanging. Like women and lesbian.

Exactly.

The OED, imho, has become much freer with the introduction of new words, so even fleeting ones get a look in. It will be interesting to see if transbianism becomes more than a cult offering. Even if it does, can't see the general population thinking it anything other than strictly for the hard of thinking.

I'm just glad that this ancient society is coming to it's senses. Perhaps we should have a 'this thread believes...'

'Trans' may now be fairly broadly recognised but it has no fixed meaning or definition. It is is simply a term that signifies and implies a particular, fringe world view.

Wow is “trans lesbian” the new “fetch” among the young ‘uns?

I think I will stick with lesbian as strictly defined as a biological woman sexually attracted to other biological women and, in my particular case, my wife.

I haven’t the time to parse all this navel gazing being a middle-aged TERF who is so over this nonsense. flounces away from game of semantic hop scotch to do something useful like bring up my kids to not be so self-absorbed

The Ayes walk out one door and Noes another and the Don't Knows walk out the middle door, with Tellers on each door. Then they all meet in the bar for the result and eat complementary chips (according to the man in the chair who introduces a new speaker with the words, ‘You have the ears of the House’).

Thanks for clarifying. So that means that anyone can see how you are voting.
I wonder if that ever affects the results of a debate on a touchy subject, given what happens to people who Like the 'wrong' things on social media?

one thing the trans movement loves, is pretending that words can change reality. but redefining things, shifting definitions, has not changed the underlying reality. you are just getting lost in delusions and fantasies.

Most people don't believe in 'ghosts' or believe in 'god' & there's no evidence of either existing & yet these words & their meaning are broadly accepted. Again the 'underlying reality' is irrelevant to how language works.

In terms shifting definitions, this is nothing new & expected because the human experience isn't stagnant. Talk about a denial of reality.

EmilyinEverton
Definitions aren't a popularity contest. There are many words the majority of the population don't use or have never heard of. All that's required for new word legitimacy is circulation in culture. They have to be used and understood. Certainly in recent times trans lesbianism has been circulating in media & culture. Whether people dispute the validity of a phenomena is irrelevant to whether the word/definition that describes it stands because its usage based.

OK. Fine. If you say that the word 'translesbian' has been circulated in some areas of the media and culture, I'm sure you're right. If you google it, I'm sure there'll be lots of results. Some online dictionaries may even give definitions of it.

So yes, the word 'translesbian' exists. It is used in some very restricted milieux to describe a very small group of men who have adopted a complicated identity which involves appropriating terms relating to women's sexuality and sexual identities.

'All that's required for new word legitimacy is circulation in culture.
The word 'translesbian' is in circulation in some very niche areas, that's undeniable.
But is that really 'legitimisation'?

A translesbian is a man who claims to be a woman but who is still a man; a woman who is sexually attracted to a translesbian is a woman who is attracted to a man.

Bolting together two words that mean opposite things produces a word which may be 'legitimised', but not the concept behind it.
The two elements of this failed neologism contradict each other.

Apart from all that, I'm totally fed up with men appropriating women's identities, cultures and words, like 'lesbian'.

Bolting together two words that mean opposite things produces a word which may be 'legitimised', but not the concept behind it.
The two elements of this failed neologism contradict each other.

This analysis fails because same gender attraction is the relevant point not sex.
Of course, that doesn't mean you have to agree but majority opinions however justified have no bearing on social usage.

Semantic gerrymandering matters because it is used to create an illusion of entitlement.

Same-sex-attracted women set up venues and dating apps for themselves. Because the word they use for themselves is "lesbian", these are called lesbian spaces.

Along come men who identify as women, and use the word "lesbian" to mean "people who identify as women who are attracted to people who identify as women". Then they say "hey, we are lesbians so we belong in the "lesbian" spaces".

At best, it's sloppy thinking. At worst, it's a deliberate trick. Linguistic sleight of hand.

Nobody is attracted by gender, sexual arousal is a physical response not a social construal response.

Yes - unless we are in a world where only men ( however they identify) decide what words mean. 🙄

Maeve Halligan was on fire 🔥.
She is an absolute legend.

Very occasionally a broken clock strikes twice. As loathe as I am to quote Andrew Tate Tate he has a point.

https://youtube.com/shorts/xX4WExJcIj4?si=XmVb8taJuI61A1q4

If you have to go to Andrew Tate to support your position…. maybe you’re not thinking straight.

But being a lesbian is a sexual identity, not a gender one - sex is a lot more relevant to being a lesbian than gender, believe me

That's an opinion. Not a fact because it clearly doesn't apply to all.

If you can't engage with the substance of a point because of identity ….maybe your'e not thinking straight.

Whatever "clever" tricks people who are slightly less clever than they think they are pull with language:

• the same people are still female and the same people are still male
• the same people are still same-sex attracted, and they are still attracted to the same sex they always were
• the same people are still opposite-sex attracted, and they are also still attracted to the same people they always were
• the sex that has had most of the economic, cultural and social power through human history will still have most of the econonmic, cultural and social power
• the sex that is more frequently sexually and domestically abused and exploited by the other will still be the most frequently sexually and domestically abused and exploited by the other

Because moving the words around just changes which people words point to. It changes nothing about the people themselves.

All it does is obscure that reaity, and make it that much harder for the sex that has less economic, cultural and social power and is more frequently sexually and domestically abused to make sense of what happens to them and why it happens, and to speak plainly to each other and to power to say This Is Wrong.

But hey, as long as some men (in the original meaning) get to call themselves lesbians, who cares, amirite?

Do you think “trans lesbians” are about “same gender” attraction and actual lesbians about same sex attraction then?