Does the guardian really not see?

[Theeyeballsinthesky]

"We work tirelessly to establish the facts – and when we get them wrong, we correct them. For democracy to survive, for society to progress, we need a shared foundation of facts. If we cannot broadly agree that the grass is green, we cannot have a conversation about what to do about the pollutants that are killing it"

https://www.theguardian.com/media/ng-interactive/2026/may/06/how-to-survive-the-information-crisis-we-once-talked-about-fake-news-now-reality-itself-feels-fake

this is a good article about the importance of facts, connection and how society might navigate the current crisis of mis and dis information

and yet Viner has written the above with clearly straight face while editing a paper that hounded out journalists who said that no one can change sex and continues to relentlessly push the TWAW/ppl especially women who don't believe are nasty bigots and to put it kindly misrepresent the law in this area

dors she reallly not see or is she just as much of a victim of all the things she points out in her article?

Using your own logic - a trans man is just a contemporary/social classification term for a butch lesbian. The use of the word 'man' for a butch woman is the whole basis of gender identity theory.....and is supposed to be subversive.
What it doesn't do, though, is change the sex of the individual.

No, it is the word you are using........

It's not meaningful to ask whether a single parameter (like sex) 'is' binary, bimodal, or monomodal: it's a question that can only be answered by measuring another parameter.

With respect to sex (as registered at birth), the following have binary distributions: karyotype; possession of testes or ovaries; testosterone levels (also Q angle, neck circumference and grip strength have negligible overlap).

Bimodal: height; strength; speed; criminality.

Monomodal: height (in certain populations, with a flattened curve); IQ (with differing amplitude at the median point).

And, before anyone starts, XY women with testes, or with no gonads, are very rare, and abnormal (in the statistical sense: it's not a pejorative).

An alien would have no trouble discerning sex in humans.

Once you know who the men are (XY: normal development), then the fact that they are likely to be stronger, and more violent, than any woman that they meet (and potentially able to impregnate her) shapes the whole of society, and the rules that it adopts, whether to safeguard paternity, or the women themselves, and irrespective of the existence of some weak men, and violent women.

Viner isn't a true believer imo (although she definitely works with some), she is an opportunistic cynic protecting her considerable income. The Guardian only survives by courting US subscribers, so it blares out US-led identity politics and "us against the man" hyperbole. It's a business strategy.

Agree.

The use of the prefix “trans” needs to be altered . They are trans-identifying men or women. This is clear about the fact that they remain men or women.

Is Viner cynically but calculatingly and single handedly keeping The Graun afloat by pandering to American leftist politics where everyone does jazz hands instead of clapping, are incapable of logical thought processes (male violence is permissible in toilets but not in hospitals, DV hostels & prisons) and no one must suggest limits on anyone else’s behaviours.

Or is Viner a #bekind virtue signaller who initially thought no further than believing we can just all live and let live as one happy family and then found herself dragged into the reality of conflicting rights thanks to female reporters with integrity like Freeman and Moore, but then refused to support the reality of sex or backtrack because of believing in financial reality.

My money is on the second one.

When Guardian writers address specific trans issues, such as sport, safeguarding, or medical ethics, they stress that our knowledge is imperfect, the data incomplete, the issue nuanced, and decision-makers likely to be led astray by their own preconceptions.

Which is true. But in that case, as those proposing to change the way that we have always done things, shouldn't the TRAs be the ones to bear the onus of proof – that trans-inclusive and trans-affirming social and medical practices are in fact both safe and fair?

AFAB transwomen truly are the most marginalised and tiny community. They are so in the margins that they actually fell through the hole punches.

Thank you!
It’s one of the things that make me especially ggggrrrrrr.

They are far more marginalised than the privileged cis trans women.

Thank you 🙏🙏🙏

Does anyone know how I could get in contact with Kath Viner? My story sounds like exactly the kind of thing the Guardian would want to write about.

Kath would get a scoop (I'm picturing the headline: "Mumsnet radicalised me to become my authentic self"), the readership would get more FACTS (see the many I have shared on this thread) and (more importantly?) Kath will help to keep the money rolling in so that it becomes irrelevant whether her motivation is to please the US backers or to demonstrate her virtue and kindness... because she'll achieve both.

Everyone's a winner!

I am not quite ready to be out out yet so I'll probably ask someone to do an AI-generated photo of me. Maybe Dr Dame Katy Denise, as she would be very likely to give me bigger boobs, going by what I've seen lately from her, which would feel very validating (and would be cheaper than an Oxford breastplate or asking any ex-actors to achieve this through hypnosis).

Giant ,fake, rubber boobs should, from now on, be known as an 'Oxford breastplate'.

Probably Bluesky, as I imagine you must be on there already?

They are far more marginalised than the privileged cis trans women.

Yes! If any cis trans women (great to see you also reminding everyone about the gaps 👍 after borntobequiet kindly helped me) dare to say that they are more marginalised or more trans than me, this will simply show everyone how bigoted they are.

Giant ,fake, rubber boobs should, from now on, be known as an 'Oxford breastplate'.

Yes! We can correct everyone who doesn't use the right words. Language evolves. Only bigots don't respect this.

Thank you @Ereshkigalangcleg and @CassOle ❤️❤️ I feel euphoric!!

Ms/Miss/Mrs/Mx Viner, are you there? Let's do this! 👏👏👏

Edited to add: not yet on Bluesky but that's great advice. From everything I've heard about it, I would feel very accepted and validated there (as well as being able to contact Kath). Thanks Eresh.

I'm trying to work out how men appropriating the word 'woman' and moving into female space challenges dominant and powerful structures of oppression?

In what way does this appropriation and 'identification' benefit women and girls - on the ground, and in daily life?

Just checking you know that lovely Bonfire is a fully paid up terf, and this parody is the result of her having lost every last will to live due to the antics of our current ploppers…

ETA (unless you’re joining her in the realm of the have-no-more-fucks-to-give, in which case carry on…)

Firstly, unless you can educate yourself on the difference between stereotypes & typical behaviours you won't have the ability to fully understand & engage in this conversation proficiently. Maybe you don't really want to anyway?

Catching up. This wouldn't come across well if your arguments were sound, Aisha. When written as part of a post that, again, is hole-y as heck, it really doesn't.

It's impossible to pick up on every issue in your posts. But, to choose just one phrase...

the difference between stereotypes & typical behaviours

Do you mean the difference in definitions - what these words typically mean? Your phrasing implies you must, as it indicates you believe there is a definitive difference. But that difference can only exist in a tidy dictionary definition. In the application of these words by humans and for humans, in our mad, bad world, this line can't be as clearly drawn. It's so much more complex and subjective - and contested across time and space. Which is PPs' point. Which, again, you appear to be missing / refusing to address directly. I think, because in acknowledging this, your argument crumbles.

To say in the same hour or so that sex is bimodal, yet there's a clear "difference" between stereotypes and typical behaviours, really is to turn reality upsidedown. A spegg there is not. A complex interaction between behavioural trends and how these are read, described and used in human societies there most definitely is.

@Catiette: spegg!!

Because it would take too long to react to every post....

@BonfireLady

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ (and 😂)

I mean, this:

given typical behaviours can also be stereotypes (expectations)

It's so (conveniently? or, I increasingly think, confusedly) reductive. From the understanding of what these words mean right through to the complexity of their application.

And this:

the fact that the sexes share typical behaviours that are more common to one sex than the other

This must be "fact" in its colloquial application, but if so, feels inconsistent with an earlier insistence on distinguishing between fact and opinion, especially given that our concerns can be summed up as "typical behaviours" are not (in fact!) fact, but opinion (on the most basic Key Stage 3 level; there are better descriptors, but let's keep it simple here).

There's something like this in almost every sentence of your posts, Aisha, which means that, by the time we get to the end of a longer post, the issues have accumulated and compounded to the point that it's nigh on impossible to address them coherently (at least without an essay!)

I still just can't work out is whether you recognise this in their posts, or not. If it's strategy, or analytical fail.

Just checking you know that lovely Bonfire is a fully paid up terf, and this parody is the result of her having lost every last will to live due to the antics of our current ploppers…

Say what?! My existence is being erased. I need to set up a Crowdfunder ASAP or I am going to disappear. Like Marty McFly did in that photo. Only 💰💰💰💰💰 will save me now.

I'm off to find some true allies who recognise the importance of 💰💰💰💰💰 in driving outcomes.

As a starter for 10, I'm guessing I'll find Drs Webberley and Gallacher over on Bluesky. If I can get some quotes from them, Kath's scoop can also double up as a money-raiser for everyone who needs it most. Ooooooh, maybe Jolyon could help me think about how I turn a press opportunity into something like this.

I can't wait to meet my new friends 👏👏👏👏

And the same to you! 😂

(Why am I thinking of Red Dwarf now... Ah, got it! Smeg, right?)

🎉🎉🎉

😬

I think that’s the far left end of the spectrum…