Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are We Really 'Women' On The Inside?

1000 replies

HazelLemur · 27/04/2026 17:39

Dear friends,

As anyone paying attention to current trans affairs knows, the anti-trans brigade like to throw around what they think is the “killer question”.

"What is a woman, then?"

These people will often engage in triumphal sneering as they further insist "Your chromosomes are what you are; XX are women and XY are men. It's science, innit?"

And as a confident trans-woman I say to these people "Absolutely! What is a woman? Great question! Let's examine that".

To begin, let's consult three definitive sources:

First, the Cambridge Dictionary of the English Language.
Then, modern genetics and neurophysiology.
And finally, up to date research on brain structure in cisgender and transgender women.

First, the dictionary.
For this, let's go with the Cambridge Dictionary of the English Language:

Woman (noun)

  1. an adult female human being
  2. an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth

As we can see from #2, despite the recent social backlash and disproportionately loud screeching from certain murky corners of the internet, Western culture as a whole is moving toward accepting the validity of trans peoples' inner gender identity. No person with a working moral compass would consider this a bad thing.

Next, let’s summarize genetics and neurophysiology.

Modern society routinely treats all the following “XY” humans as WOMEN, however...
-You can be a woman because you have X & Y chromosomes but your body is insensitive to androgens and you have female anatomy & gender identity.
Ah, so much for the childishly simplistic “But women = XX and men = XY".
-You can be a woman with X & Y chromosomes but your Y is missing the SRY gene, so you have a female body and gender identity (yes, this is a real thing despite your denials).

People who have X & Y chromosomes, but their Y is missing the SRY gene, develop a female body.
Should we treat such people as men, in society, when they have the body of a woman, simply because simpletons insist that XY = Male?
Only an inveterate bigot with some weird religious and/or psychosexual axe to grind would say yes.

You can be a woman with XXY or XXXY chromosomes, giving you a male body but female brain/body map and gender identity.
-You can be a woman with XY chromosomes but a mutation called CBX2 that blocks the influence of the SRY gene.
-You can be a woman because you have 46,XY in some cells but 46,XX in other cells, or 47, XXY.

These are all valid, scientifically obervable genetic variations that highlight the "But XX = women and XY = men" mantra for the simplistic, unscientific nonsense that it is.

And lastly, there are studies of brain structure.
These show that in the section of the brain that determines one’s sense of gender identity.

The brains of transgender women are almost identical to those of cisgender women.
The brains of trans men also align more with cisgender men than they do with women.

And so, to summarize

Modern science, which is how rational people resolve differences of opinion.
It is not about referring to holy books, written in pre-scientific ages past.
It is not about regurgitating simplistic, binary statements that you learnt in the 4th grade.

This shows us that, genetically and biologically speaking, there are many types of women; including transgender women like me.

P.S. In this essay we have a summary of the cutting edge science which validates transgender womens' biologically determined, inner sense of gender identity.

As I’ve said, a rational society follows rational explanations, and doesn’t define its people via outdated religious or cultural ideas.
But beyond that, there is simply human courtesy and kindness.

It’s cruel, hateful and rude for the transphobic bigots to demand that people be forced to conform to their anti-scientific notions.

No one's life is affected negatively by honoring a transwoman as a woman, as the historical record of many trans accepting societies have shown.

Good people will see the very challenging dilemma that transwomen are in, and their natural empathy, coupled with scientific insight, will make them want to support their fellow human beings in being who they know they are.

And so, I ask all of you:

Should we as a society treat trans-women as the women their brain and neurobiology tells us they are? And, if not, why on earth wouldn’t we?

P.P.S. The image in this post is of women who have XY chromosomes, but an androgen insensitivity syndrome which causes their bodies to develop as female.
Would anyone in their right mind insist we treat them as males, simply because of their chromosomal makeup?
The bigots might, but you know you're better than that, right?

Are We Really 'Women' On The Inside?
OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
EdithStourton · 28/04/2026 12:21

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 11:59

I've responded many times before. In detail. It got me nowhere.

It's not that I can't refute the points I made ( most of which related to my beliefs, and why I held them, rather than, say, the scientific claims which the OP made ) it's genuinely that I don't see the point.

I didn't start this thread, the OP did. I'm not particularly inclined to become the next target on it.

You're not refuting the points that were made to you.

You say you've done it elsewhere. In which case it should be easy.

Just like most of the posters on this thread have refuted bullshit like the OP on a loop for years. We carry on doing it. It's tedious, but it's not difficult.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:22

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:12

I don't give a flying fuck what the women on this thread think about my position. I was asked what I believe, and I answered.

I came on this thread to pull up the OP for their - in my opinion - patronising and inflammatory approach. Someone asked for my views on the subject, and I responded.

I didn't come here to start a debate - particularly in a space where I knew I would be outnumbered.

As I've said before - I've had these discussions many, many times. I've spent countless hours - days, even - expressing my views carefully, with rationale, with evidence. All of that.

It has got me precisely nowhere. Which is why I'm not doing it again. Again, it's not that I CAN'T refute your arguments, it's just that I WILL NOT.

This is pointless. The whole thing is pointless. We're not going to settle it here, or in any of the other spaces in which this subject gets debated.

It's not even going to get settled in law. Your side thought they had it won last summer, but look what a pyrrhic victory that turned out to be. Labour are going to continue to fudge and obfuscate on this until the next election, at which point either Reform will try and sway it one way, or the Greens will try and sway it the other.

I fully expect us to be debating/arguing about this until the eventual heat death of the universe. Which is not a cheery thought at all, but hey ho.

Thank you. That is at least clear.

You do not care what women on a women’s rights thread think about your position, while your position is that women should give up single-sex boundaries for some males.

That is the whole problem in one sentence.

You are perfectly entitled not to debate. But then your argument remains unsupported.

“I have evidence elsewhere” is not evidence here. “I could refute you but won’t” is not a refutation. And “this is pointless” does not answer the basic question.

On what grounds should female people lose single-sex privacy, dignity and consent for male people who identify as trans?

If you will not answer that, fine.

But do not pretend this is kindness, compassion or compromise. It is simply refusing to justify male inclusion in female spaces.

And to add - there is a snowballs chance in hell of the Greens winning anything, it's right wing three horse coalition in 2027 and all of this will be moot - when the GRA is repealed and it's criminalised for males to go into female spaces - bring it on.

TheWickerFan · 28/04/2026 12:22

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:21

Honestly, @IggyPopsPlasticTrousers , I'd tap out now; if only for your own sanity.

These people are as incapable of change as they are of rational thought

Says the person who's posted a bunch of AI nonsense and refused every single request to provide any links to back up their claims.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:23

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:21

Honestly, @IggyPopsPlasticTrousers , I'd tap out now; if only for your own sanity.

These people are as incapable of change as they are of rational thought

Again, this is just insult in place of argument.

You started with claims about science, compassion and rationality. Now you are telling another poster to leave because women are asking basic questions about female consent and single-sex spaces.

If your position cannot survive the question “why should females lose a female-only boundary for males?”, that is not our failure of rational thought.

It is the weakness of your argument.

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:23

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:22

Thank you. That is at least clear.

You do not care what women on a women’s rights thread think about your position, while your position is that women should give up single-sex boundaries for some males.

That is the whole problem in one sentence.

You are perfectly entitled not to debate. But then your argument remains unsupported.

“I have evidence elsewhere” is not evidence here. “I could refute you but won’t” is not a refutation. And “this is pointless” does not answer the basic question.

On what grounds should female people lose single-sex privacy, dignity and consent for male people who identify as trans?

If you will not answer that, fine.

But do not pretend this is kindness, compassion or compromise. It is simply refusing to justify male inclusion in female spaces.

And to add - there is a snowballs chance in hell of the Greens winning anything, it's right wing three horse coalition in 2027 and all of this will be moot - when the GRA is repealed and it's criminalised for males to go into female spaces - bring it on.

😂
Classic psychology at work here. A 'solution' in desperate search of a problem

OP posts:
IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:23

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:22

Thank you. That is at least clear.

You do not care what women on a women’s rights thread think about your position, while your position is that women should give up single-sex boundaries for some males.

That is the whole problem in one sentence.

You are perfectly entitled not to debate. But then your argument remains unsupported.

“I have evidence elsewhere” is not evidence here. “I could refute you but won’t” is not a refutation. And “this is pointless” does not answer the basic question.

On what grounds should female people lose single-sex privacy, dignity and consent for male people who identify as trans?

If you will not answer that, fine.

But do not pretend this is kindness, compassion or compromise. It is simply refusing to justify male inclusion in female spaces.

And to add - there is a snowballs chance in hell of the Greens winning anything, it's right wing three horse coalition in 2027 and all of this will be moot - when the GRA is repealed and it's criminalised for males to go into female spaces - bring it on.

A right wing three horse coalition in 2027? Which three horses? Reform + Tories + ?

The Greens may surprise you yet. I sincerely hope so.

Igneococcus · 28/04/2026 12:23

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:21

Honestly, @IggyPopsPlasticTrousers , I'd tap out now; if only for your own sanity.

These people are as incapable of change as they are of rational thought

We're still waiting for those references to the "cutting edge science".

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:24

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:23

😂
Classic psychology at work here. A 'solution' in desperate search of a problem

A solution in search of a problem?

Female single-sex spaces exist because the problem is real: privacy, dignity, safeguarding, male violence, religious modesty, trauma, disability, menstruation, undressing and girls’ bodily boundaries.

That is why the law recognises sex. That is why toilets and changing rooms are separated by sex. That is why this issue matters.

You can laugh at it, but the laughter is doing the work your argument cannot.

If your answer to women saying “we need spaces without males” is “what problem?”, then you have made my point for me.

You do not understand female boundaries, or you do not care about them.

TheWickerFan · 28/04/2026 12:25

Igneococcus · 28/04/2026 12:23

We're still waiting for those references to the "cutting edge science".

You'll be waiting a long time for that because it doesn't exist.

Anyway, even if some men have a "lady brain" they still have a male body with all that extra strength, and they still offend at male levels, so I don't see what difference it would make practically. They'd still just be men, wouldn't they?

Leavesandthings · 28/04/2026 12:25

"OK please show us the source of your claims so we can consider them"

"THESE BIGOTED HAGS ARE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL THOUGHT"

EdithStourton · 28/04/2026 12:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GenderlessVoid · 28/04/2026 12:26

Leavesandthings · 28/04/2026 12:19

@HazelLemur

If you are going to start a thread with the argument that "science says..."

Please provide your sources.

I am really interested in reading them.

Please help me understand your assertions by showing your sources.

Seconding this. I'm interested, partly because of my own struggles with my identity, partly because I care about some trans people and would like to understand them better, and partly because I find the subject matter fascinating.

TheWickerFan · 28/04/2026 12:26

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:24

A solution in search of a problem?

Female single-sex spaces exist because the problem is real: privacy, dignity, safeguarding, male violence, religious modesty, trauma, disability, menstruation, undressing and girls’ bodily boundaries.

That is why the law recognises sex. That is why toilets and changing rooms are separated by sex. That is why this issue matters.

You can laugh at it, but the laughter is doing the work your argument cannot.

If your answer to women saying “we need spaces without males” is “what problem?”, then you have made my point for me.

You do not understand female boundaries, or you do not care about them.

If single-sex spaces are so unnecessary for women, then why do trans women need them anyway? Why are they so desperate for access? If other women don't need them, surely they don't either.

BackToLurk · 28/04/2026 12:26

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:21

Honestly, @IggyPopsPlasticTrousers , I'd tap out now; if only for your own sanity.

These people are as incapable of change as they are of rational thought

Is it rational to say that you believe transwomen are women, but don’t believe they should be allowed access to women-only rape crisis centres?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:26

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:23

A right wing three horse coalition in 2027? Which three horses? Reform + Tories + ?

The Greens may surprise you yet. I sincerely hope so.

I mean - obviously Restore? 3 parties, more than 50% of the vote https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

The left can't do deals, they purity spiral

However the right is pretty great at it....

The GRA is dead in the water, males entering female spaces will be criminalised.

Opinion Polling for the Next Election - Westminster Voting Intention Dashboard — Election Maps UK

interactive GB Polling Dashboard which tracks every opinion poll published since the 2024 UK General Election. Features a LOESS Polling Average weighted by historic pollster reliability.

https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

AngryHerring · 28/04/2026 12:27

Ohdofuckoffagain · 27/04/2026 22:10

Dear friends 😂😂😂

Someone needs ro redo the entire OP in the style of Lady Whistledown

Coconutter24 · 28/04/2026 12:31

Anyone can live their life as they see fit. You’re a man and want to live as a woman then fine you do that if that’s what you want to do. It makes no odds to me what anyone chooses to be. I think one of the problems is you can’t expect everyone else to go along with it. A trans woman is not a woman, they are a trans woman. Biologically they’re a male. If people just got on with their lives instead of trying to force why they think they are on people they’d probably have a much easier time.

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:32

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:26

I mean - obviously Restore? 3 parties, more than 50% of the vote https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

The left can't do deals, they purity spiral

However the right is pretty great at it....

The GRA is dead in the water, males entering female spaces will be criminalised.

Restore aren't a horse. They're barely a hoof at this stage!

I really really hope we don't end up with a Reform + Restore + Tories coalition. What a shit sandwich that would turn out to be.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:38

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:32

Restore aren't a horse. They're barely a hoof at this stage!

I really really hope we don't end up with a Reform + Restore + Tories coalition. What a shit sandwich that would turn out to be.

And if the left hadn't spent the last 10 years saying women could have cocks, and indeed sorting out the other glaring issues - we would not be looking at them winning - but they did and we are.

I was a card carrying member of the Green Party, and the Labour Party. They left me, I didn't leave them.

Quite a lot of polls are putting Restore at 10%, the Greens were at 10% less than a year ago.

HazelLemur · 28/04/2026 12:38

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:26

I mean - obviously Restore? 3 parties, more than 50% of the vote https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

The left can't do deals, they purity spiral

However the right is pretty great at it....

The GRA is dead in the water, males entering female spaces will be criminalised.

Oh dear; those polling indications - with the poundshop fascists in pole position - make for depressing viewing for anyone with a brain and a working moral compass 😕

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 28/04/2026 12:40

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:38

And if the left hadn't spent the last 10 years saying women could have cocks, and indeed sorting out the other glaring issues - we would not be looking at them winning - but they did and we are.

I was a card carrying member of the Green Party, and the Labour Party. They left me, I didn't leave them.

Quite a lot of polls are putting Restore at 10%, the Greens were at 10% less than a year ago.

Indeed. So many people I know feel the same.

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:41

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/04/2026 12:38

And if the left hadn't spent the last 10 years saying women could have cocks, and indeed sorting out the other glaring issues - we would not be looking at them winning - but they did and we are.

I was a card carrying member of the Green Party, and the Labour Party. They left me, I didn't leave them.

Quite a lot of polls are putting Restore at 10%, the Greens were at 10% less than a year ago.

I was a Labour voter for thirty years. Switched to the Greens last year because I think they're exactly what we need.

At least the latest polls show Reform in decline and the Greens on the rise. Just have to hope that trend continues all the way to the next election.

Manchesteruser · 28/04/2026 12:42

Please do not call women 'cis'.

TheKeatingFive · 28/04/2026 12:43

IggyPopsPlasticTrousers · 28/04/2026 12:41

I was a Labour voter for thirty years. Switched to the Greens last year because I think they're exactly what we need.

At least the latest polls show Reform in decline and the Greens on the rise. Just have to hope that trend continues all the way to the next election.

How anyone could vote for a party headed up by the clown that is Zack Polanski, I'll never understand.

Paganpentacle · 28/04/2026 12:44

They don’t come with cock n balls as standard.
You are NOT a woman.
At best… you feel how you “think” a woman feels.
And all us actual women know that men like to “think” they know best 🙄

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread