Disappointed that Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie is promoting her use of surrogacy as compatible with feminism

[Carla786]

I loved Purple Hibiscus and recently got through the rest of her books from my library. I really like her novels and especially her GC stance, but I was discussing her on a feminist subreddit recently and her use of surrogacy came up. It's disappointing she promotes it here as compatible with feminism,

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/entertainment/naija-fashion/791804-ive-no-regrets-welcoming-my-twins-through-surrogacy-chimamanda-adichie.html

Infertility is of course extremely painful, but I don't think that justifies using another woman's womb.

We always ignore the baby's thoughts when we conceive one.

Why do you think all birth plans mean handing the baby straight over?

"the way we adopt in this country is what causes the infants trauma"

I am sure the process for adoption is problematic but we cannot escape our genes or the resulting brain chemistry. The circumstances leading to adoption are very complicated and genetic factors cannot be parented out.

Research says otherwise : - D

So you think the baby spending a few hours or perhaps days strengthening the bond with its mother won’t make the separation more traumatic?

What research says genetic factors can be parented out? Please provide a link to research supporting your position,

Then you need to get privy with a bit more information really.

In the States where adoptive parents are present in the room when the mother gives birth, where they take the baby immediately, some of those children still present with trauma and attachment needs, some of whom can suffer severely. Those stories are easy to find if you follow attachment and trauma studies, and the programmes and approaches families are involved in.

It's rather like transitioning isn't it? Because it works out ok on the roulette board for some kids, why worry about the ones it damages and has a lifelong impact on?

It is people trafficking, with all of the many issues involved, and that's before you look at the profound selfishness of commissioning a child with the open intent of depriving it of its mother at birth. The child is a commodity in this; it's feelings aren't considered relevant compared to the adult's desire to parent it. Pre adoption training for adults starts with the explanation that adoption is rooted in loss for all concerned; at least it is honest about this.

It is all about different experiences and perspectives isn't it?

If all your children are healthy and well it won't have occurred to you but since having my DS I am very aware that if something were to happen to me. other people wouldn't look after him well because he is not an easy person to care for. I know that he would be treated poorly or with indifference because that is our experience from school/medical so far. If I werent here (and even if it were his DF as carer in my absence) things would be very horrible for him.

Personally I found that my attitude to risk did change al lot after parenthood. I do worry about accidents and dying more than I used to. Even about injury - and I got breast cancer a couple of years ago and that has made it even worse! I am now very focussed on arrangements to make sure my DS will be cared for if I am not around. But that happened (to a lesser degree) even before my cancer or that I knew he would have additional needs - at a few days old even when the responsibility of what I had done hit me!

Anyway all that is only relevant in the sense that I have become acutely aware that there seems to be a "bekind" issue with surrogacy. It seems to encourage women to remain naive to a lot of the significant difficulties until it is too late. It will be years before the results of studies are available but my hypothesis is that the outcomes will be around the same as adoption - where at least prospective parents are screened and counselled to an degree that doesn't seem to be the case with surrogacy.

Not necessarily. I think we were thinking of more a transition over a few days/weeks where we both care for the baby.

What a lovely incredibly naive idea for everyone involved.

I am not familiar with the research but please do post more details here.

I understood from the twin adoption studies from the 1980s that the genetic component was found to be the majory factor. Sorry I don't have a link - but the rate was something like 50% for identical twins compared to 5% for non identical for different behaviours like risk taking and psychiatric problems

Most men are pretty indifferent to having children. In societies where contraceptive use is normal, it's predominately the woman driving the pregnancy decision.

I'm not sure how having a baby is "kind" to any of the other people you list. They aren't involved in raising the child. They aren't craving a baby to cradle in their arms and raise according to their values. The "kindness" of the surrogate mother is in relieving that craving for another woman, which is where the conditioning to be kind and sacrifice herself for others kicks in.

Most of them do, to try to spare the surrogate mother the heartbreak of bonding further with the baby she nurtured inside her and then breaking that strengthened bond.

It's great to have a thread debating surrogacy, but very unnecessary and distasteful to link it to Adichie while she greives after the recent death of one of her children.

She wrote a defence of surrogacy. Her recent tragic loss of a child doesn't make her immune to having that defence critiqued.

To what end?

The desired goal here is to separate mother and child isn't it?

How does it help for the mother to increase her attachment to the child she is about to permanently hand over? And how does it help the baby to bond further to the mother it is about to be permanently deprived of?

Who benefits from this? Other than perhaps the removing party feeling a little better about themselves and what they are doing to these two other humans?

Grieving for a child doesn’t mean their actions or statements cannot be held to examination.

Hang on, you think ALL organ donation is immoral? Even by dead donors?

It always strikes me that women's organs are for sale - vaginas for sex, womb for babies.

Let's sell kidneys? After all, we could share the market place with the menfolk - males and females all have two each. It is unfair that we hoover up all that lovely money.

But - selling kidneys is not ethical...

I will just mention at this point that Cecilia has a fun habit of inserting herself into a debate and making the whole post about her.

She’s also got a habit of not backing women. Shes under the impression that a man telling a woman to go and fuck herself with a splintered rolling pin is a perfectly normal thing to say and not in any way violent.

I’m not going to waste my time responding to someone who is so very clearly and consistently anti-women. It’s not about differences in opinion - it’s about not wasting my time on someone who clearly doesn’t consider women’s rights important.

I think we have to be actually factual about what we are saying. Adoptive kids with fewer caregivers have less trauma. A surrogate goes from one parent to the other. the baby only knows one home and additionally,;typically lacks the genetic and social factors that predispose them to trauma. Drugs arent likely to be a factor. Nor is serious mental illness.

I get that you want people to be convinced by your arguments, but making things up isnt the way to go about it. Its okay for you to be against surrogacy just because it squicks you out. You dont have to make things up for your opinion to be valid.

This was my thought too.
A lot of the Nigerian and other African writers who break through seem to be from pretty well-off backgrounds. I wonder if there are any exceptions? This affects the kind of view we hear, especially as Adichie was anointed the voice of Nigeria & Nigerian women in some ways

I ahbrnt made the post about me, i gave my experience and then again, because you all find it really hard to take when a woman disagrees with you, you all have to continually question me about my views. You can't help yourselves.

Then when that doesnt work, you try to Badmouth me. It's really becoming tedious. You wont get women to agree with you by trying to bully and ostracise them. Be better than that.

Addicted to pregnancy? If someone wants to be a surrogate surely that is a woman’s choice. The issue is when it is purely for money and there is a wealth/power divide surely

Yes. She's thinks small children who need a liver transplant should just die because death isnt the worst thing that can happen to a person (or their parents, i guess).