Truly single-sex bra fittings for DD13

[Secretsquirrelshh]

Inspired by threads on here re: mixed sex fitting rooms, I need to find somewhere for DD13 (very shy, incredibly embarrassed by EVERYTHING) to have her first ever bra fitting.

M&S is obviously right out, and we don't have a lovely independent shop anywhere near us.

I see John Lewis no longer enforce single-sex changing spaces.

Does anyone have any recommendations of nationwide stores that do truly single-sex bra fittings?

There are two separate issues here: the sex of the bra fitting staff and the possibility of there being a male customer in the vicinity. I quite see why the bra fitting staff must be female but I don't get why a man being in an adjacent fitting room would be a big deal.

No they haven’t been about for decades only since the trans movement started to indoctrinate themselves into women’s spaces. Trans woman are not woman they are men and it is absolutely ok as a young woman to not want men in the woman’s changing area for bra fitting or jeans trying on. It’s really that simple

Don't you? You might want to educate yourself on what happened at Target when changing rooms became unisex.

Sexual offences against women and girls are a big deal to most of us

Crikey. If she’s as small as a 28aa or a then I’d get her some cropped tops for now. Some good ones are out there with support.

after that I get an idea of size, choose a bunch of bras buy them try them
at home. She doesn’t need a
professional fit yet.

surely you can judge it ?

OK. I didn't know about Target but now do. If Bridget Phillipson wasn't so dilatory, there would be clarity on this.

It's still a real crapshoot!

I have had the same (make and model) bras for ages, went to find a replacement and everything from same brand in same size still completely varied in fit. It's so time-consuming!

It's not about it being a 'risky situation'. The OP has explicitly said it is not.

If you cannot see the issue with being in a cubicle, being measured for your first (any) bra, and talking about your body and breasts with the fitter, while a man in the next cubicle can hear you - then I'm not sure we can help you. However, you might start by reading reviews online by men about M&S lingerie they have ordered, and listening to shop staff who have to handle the returns that men have, er, used. And then having a little think about why particular males feel the need to go into the changing rooms situated next to the women's lingerie section.

People who've said I could measure her at home or get a selection to try on are absolutely right. BUT I think it's a) a bit of a right of passage and b) important for her to feel confident in doing something like this herself when she's older. If she's never done it with her Mum (or other trusted adult), it could seem alien and scary to her as a grown up when she might need to go (see PP who needed a fitting for medical reasons) - and also we're always being told we're wearing the wrong size bra!

And yes, it's not a safeguarding issue, so much as helping her feel unobserved by men, and by making it feel as safe a space as possible to respect her.

Those of you who are fine with men trying on jeans in the next cubicle - I wonder if you told your kids when they were little that if they got lost, go and find a nice man to help you? We instinctively know that women are safer and I want her to feel safe during this appointment.

Thanks to the PP who recommended some independents. One is 30 mins or so away, so might be worth the drive. Will read some reviews.

It is a big deal for some of us. I was trying on a bra in M&S (emergency purchase, I normally avoid them but was away from home and needed a bra).

There was no supervision of the changing rooms, but it was the lingerie department so I had no expectation of there being a man there. Just as I was half naked, I heard a man cough and clear his throat in the next cubicle (yes it was definitely a man).

I completely froze; I was half undressed and he was between me and the exit of the fitting room with nobody else about. I am very robust usually, but I was shocked at how it affected me. I quickly dressed and saw his back as he was leaving; definitely a man and one who had no reason to be using the lingerie changing room, he was either just doing it for a jolly or worse.

My consent is not transferrable, and I do not consent to be half naked and vulnerable when men are around, whether in a toilet or a changing room. Are we just supposed to stay at home? How progressive of you.

The conversation is going to be much the same as for any clothing eg. That looks it’s a good fit. Does that feel comfortable?

Plus I’m sure bra fitters are fully aware of how to not embarrass a girl getting her first bra.

Total non-issue.

I would have reacted as you did had I heard a man in the lingerie changing room. Of course we're not supposed to stay at home.

I agree.

And those fussing that the 'risk is tiny' or 'just storm out' -

no, I wouldn't want to put myself in the situation, never mind a 13 year old at her first bra fitting, where there is a possibility of being confronted by a man in women's clothing who would like us to pretend he is a woman and would also like for a 13 year old girl to take her top off and bare her breasts to him.

Particularly knowing that for some men, this is a sexual thrill and that men have been enabled to take these positions while supported by the staff and leadership to play such games with women and girls regardless of whether said women and girls consent.

Nor would I want to be put in the position of having to say to said man that he is a man - something we all know would not go down well or be a pleasant experience for him - and which is not likely to result in a smile and 'no problem, I'll go and get a female colleague' but in drama, anger, arguments, possible threats of being reported to the police or being asked to leave the store as a transphobe. Or subjecting the child to all this and making an already sensitive experience into an absolute horror story for her. Because a man who would do this to women and put them in this situation won't have any fucks to give about that.

So no. I wouldn't go near a store who might without warning drop this situation on me. The likelihood is low; the consequences if it does are horrific. So sod that.

OP I'd look for a local dressmaker. As usual women are having to go to lengths and extra work and stress to try and do something that used to be so easy - because a few bloody men want what they want.

But you just said:

"I don't get why a man being in an adjacent fitting room would be a big deal."

It clearly is a big deal for many of us.

There is clarity, the judgement was very clear. The governance is wilfully choosing to ignore the judgement.

Also worth noting, yet again, that a couple of men playing this game is enough to make the service and resource untenable for so many women users, for whom the service was supposedly created in the first place.

Lingerie fitting is specific to women so should be single sex. Unlike some women, I would be OK trying on clothes in a cubicle with a locking door in a supervised, unisex space.

One of the TRA chants at the London protest yesterday was about demanding the right to work in bra shops.

Slightly different subject, but went to a major shopping centre today. Teenage DD is very into ‘Berksha’ so took her there. She wanted to try on a load of things. ‘All Gender’ fitting rooms - flimsy curtain and a bloke trying on clothes next to her. Thankfully I was there and waited outside the curtain, watching like a hawk. Who on earth thinks this is a good idea? 😡

As men are welcomed into women's changing rooms in almost all shops, including specifically lingerie shops and changing rooms, what sort of man do posters imagine will be availing themselves of this?

it really feels to me as though this ideaology has done a massive number on women, when they consider a rational reaction to be, um, just take a big a cardigan, or what are the chances?, or do it yourself, or at home, or don't do it at all!

It's bloody outrageous.

None of those is an answer.

The answer is female only changing rooms.

These are the people Bridget Phillipson is listening to.

You only have to read through the record of the conversations in the Sandie Peggie and Darlington nurses cases to know how it would go if you tried to say no to a man who wanted to put you in this situation.

Agreed.

Most men are perfectly normal and not perverted and will wait outside the area, staring at his phone in boredom whilst their wife or whatever tries on.

A dad wouldn't generally take their daughter, and even then would "hand her over" at the threshold... But now has to check there isn't actually a man who pretends to be woman measuring her.

The conversation is not the same as for any clothing, but perhaps you don't know that. Fitters don't go into a changing room to help a young girl on with a jumper. There is likely to be embarrassment because of what they are trying on, and the fact that is has never been needed or worn before.

This is not a total non-issue. Neither is the man in the next cubicle, which you have ignored.

Shocking...a man wants to be able to see women's breasts...