Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true

[mardirousse]

You would expect Trans Rights Activists to be concerned about the physical mental health of gender questioning children, yet I haven't seen a single TRA express the slightest concern that gender affirming care might be causing harm to young kids, who they see as transgender. Not here, not on r/transgenderuk, not on x.
They are attacking the credibility of the study, but given its size and the very shocking findings, why aren't at least some of them expressing a little concern that there might be something in it? I mean, these are vulnerable kids, and they're taking really powerful drugs with major long-term consequences, and now it looks like there's evidence that it may be doing the opposite of what it's supposed to...
How could you not be concerned, whatever your agenda? They're kids!
Aren't trans rights activists interested in the right of trans kids to be safe and healthy?
Am I missing something?

My medium faith answer is my personal beliefs about sex (sex realist definition) and my sex (biological, social definition) are 'impossible' to convey in sex realist space, so your interpretation is as good as any.

I just looked back and I think that Rapid was showing you that he understood you didn’t want to answer with those flowers. He will no doubt answer for himself but I think he is genuine about how important finding out is for him.

So your meaning of sex is philisophically and purely subjective and not biological material reality?

My sex is very real. The fact that my existence is against your beliefs makes discussing all definitions of sex subjective rather than objective.

Ha ha! No it doesn’t. Something doesn’t become “subjective” because people are wrong. The shape of the earth is not a “subjective” matter just because people who think it’s flat exist.

Your existence is undeniable. There you are. But your sex is what it is. It’s not everyone else’s problem or a subjective matter because you pretend it’s something it’s not.

Just because you believe your sex has become female doesn’t make it so. You believing it doesn’t make that so. You exist. No doubt about it.

What you are not and never will be is female. That you have constructed a subjective reality that doesn’t reflect material reality doesn’t make your version the abiding material reality.

You can say the moon is made of cheese and you can philosophise all you want to try to prove it is, but that doesn’t make the moon made out of cheese. You can even convince some people that it is so, still won’t change material reality. The point is It doesn’t matter how many people agree or act as if they agree that the moon is made out cheese, it isn’t.

That you are a male person, is very real, yes. You are quite correct that your sex is real. You are a male person who has undergone extreme body modification to suit your identity but you are still male. Because ‘female’ is not a male person who has elected to have extreme body modification.

Bit why would you as a man believe you have any commonality in experience with women? And as I say to all the accusations, if the shoe fits…. wear it.

If you did receive a sternly written note, would it change your behaviour? Would you stop using women’s single sex spaces? Should I send sternly written notes to the trans identifying men I know and tell them to stop? Does it have to be in actual handwriting? Because from what I can see people have asked you both politely and sternly on this online platform to stop using single sex spaces and it hasn’t made the slightest difference to your behaviour. Does this forum not count as a ‘sternly written note’?

And this is the essence of the entire 'debate'. The people who insist there is one when the reality is just something they don't like and can't actually be changed.

Instead we get linguistic gymnastics and abuse for it.

How about if everything can be subjective, you can whack whatever label onto your experiences that you want. Therefore, if you have chosen to be a woman in your mind because of your investment in extreme body modification treatments, everything is labelled as if those experiences are the same and hence, you have this cycle of distortion.

And if you say that sex is subjective and it is socially constructed you fulfil your own fallacy by believing that your experiences are that of a woman / wife / mother.

Yet, none of it is true or accurate. Because it all is self determined and self created around that choice you made to use philosophical theory to enable your subjective reality to be reported as material reality when it is not material reality at all.

On the internet, nobody can tell you're a beautiful woman.

I'm not remotely interested in how someone wants to identify or view reality. I'm more than happy for third spaces to be created for those who don't want to be the sex they are, or to use spaces for their sex, privacy and dignity is an important thing.

But when that chosen inner self means a man is trying to redefine the sex class of women to their own needs, to erase the reality of women, to trample their rights and spaces, to use their spaces and resources to meet their own desires, and to exclude women by their presence? No, I have no interest or sympathy there at all. Don't do it. In the same way as don't steal someone's car or phone because you feel you want it or can come up with a lot of bullshit about why you think you need it.

What is this peculiar idea of the 'sternly written note' ffs? It is NOT up to women to provide you with sufficient evidence of disapproval before you start to respect their equality and rights in law. The women you most affect will have quietly and discreetly got the fuck away as fast as possible while trying hard not to attract your attention. Behaviour like yours is exactly why women need sex based rights in law, and apparently clear consequences for breaking them since you're saying without such consequences you'll just roll on doing you all over women.

Gender identity is the rejection of the material world and reality.

This means that the person who rejects demonstrable truths, can then reframe them as 'opinion', thus preserving their fantasy in their own head.

Yes. And someone, through philosophising, gave a group the sense of authority to either demand or emotionally manipulate others to allow their rejection to be legitimised and normalised.

... then you have the people who stand up to the brainwashing, the shaming, the threats and actual harms. So, the issue then becomes, what do the believers do with the people who say 'No, I am not going to go along with these lies' and won't be cowed?

These last few years have taught me more about cowardice and bravery than anything else.

Yes, your male sex is very real, I 100% agree.

The message that comes through loud and clear is that the trans community doesn't give a shit about 'trans children'. It's us gender critical/sex realists that care about any harm that may be happening to them.

The children serve a purpose for the adult trans people and are therefore seen as a resource, rather than children.

I saw more concern for a man who had undergone vaginoplasty with terrible healing problems on kiwifarms than on Reddit. The same thing happened when Gruffin died. The posters here and on the farms posted with real sadness.

So I concluded that the TRAs often don't care for the adults either. It is about whether the person upholds the correct narrative or not. So, detransitioners are especially derided.

It is essentially a very selfish 'community'.

The word 'sacrificial' also springs to mind.

In this activist world other people are only valued in terms of their usefulness as tools and vehicles. For the exact measure of their usefulness.

You have not shown any concern that a peer reviewed study on thousands of children found that their mental health worsened massively after receiving gender affirming "care".
You've just blathered on about the huge amount of research you did before getting treatment.

And insisted you're actually female now.

Do you think there might be something in the findings of study or not?

This is it, isn't it? We've had thousands of children subject to real, irreversible physical and mental damage because of the narrative pushed by trans activists but their only reaction to is "But what about me? You're all mean for not thinking about me"
Utter narcissism.

Thank you. To be honest, I can't remember what was going through my mind. I presume onepostwonder thought I was being sarcastic, which is also possible.

What I do know is that I have been trying to understand trans worldviews for years, and I haven't yet come across any that don't appear to be denying physical reality. So many versions of "I am whatever I say I am", "sex is a spectrum", "binary is bad", "women just need to accept that I'm in their spaces and suck it up", "transwomen are women", "woman means what I say it means", "you have to call me what I demand or you're a bigot". Honestly I have never come across such an authoritarian ideology outside the most fundamentalist sects I have crossed paths with. And they at least didn't threaten to shite on anyone's head or rape women with a splintery rolling pin.

This reminds me of the shit Elis Lundholm (the transman who competed in the recent Winter Olympics) got from TIM activists, namely, Brianna Wu and Ari Drennen, simply because she rightfully competed in the women's category.

I’ve long suspected that many trans people, who’ve experienced awful side effects from medications and surgeries, remain silent because they know they have to uphold the trans joy manifesto. Anyone who’s spoken up about side effects has been aggressively knocked down. There will be many permanently injured and damaged people out there who can’t discuss their pain because it’s contrary to TRA agenda.

If I recall, the median age of those entered into that study were over 18? They're hardly children. There are far more studies published by authors who are not members of organisations formed to prevent trans people from accessing treatment. The studies tend to ask trans youth and their families directly whether children are happy, adjusting and thriving rather than fold contextless numbers together to manufacture a crisis in mental health.

But, you asked about concern about the mental health of trans children. I am really concerned that they are being harmed by the absence of healthcare access in this country. I am concerned that they have been excluded from care because there is a larger cohort of non-trans children who have requested and received trans-oriented treatments that should not be receiving treatment. Some of these children ultimately detransition, others will presumably be living as the opposite sex for the remainder of their lives.

As far as I know, living life as the opposite sex and growing old is not currently illegal in this country, as much as some have made realising the goal their life's focus. It's not a death sentence. It's not a horrible existence. And no, it is not impossible.

Males who received treatment to become females were psychologically healthier than all other cohorts entering the study, according to the framing.

The clinic I was in did not provide psychologic support services either.

If I apply the protocol to myself, I would have increased the morbidity numbers because I saw a psychiatrist for a number of things after my rape. I knew others who saw people for depression and develop coping skills while they were dealing with hate and abuse. 60.7% is a really big number, but it is wrapped with no further information.

The study authors didn't address the categories of morbidity at all or the number of visits to a psychologist made, and yet they had access to all the data. Not all morbidities would preclude entering into gender treatment. Were those same morbidities excluded in the post-treatment morbidity triggers? No one knows.

So yes, OP. I am really concerned. I'm concerned about health of children and adolescents who have the right to treatment from clinical experts who are currently prevented from accessing care by political legislation influenced by the lobbying efforts of religious conservatives, political conservatives and a few women, who latched on to a culture war that diverts focus from actual issues impacting women.