Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true

[mardirousse]

You would expect Trans Rights Activists to be concerned about the physical mental health of gender questioning children, yet I haven't seen a single TRA express the slightest concern that gender affirming care might be causing harm to young kids, who they see as transgender. Not here, not on r/transgenderuk, not on x.
They are attacking the credibility of the study, but given its size and the very shocking findings, why aren't at least some of them expressing a little concern that there might be something in it? I mean, these are vulnerable kids, and they're taking really powerful drugs with major long-term consequences, and now it looks like there's evidence that it may be doing the opposite of what it's supposed to...
How could you not be concerned, whatever your agenda? They're kids!
Aren't trans rights activists interested in the right of trans kids to be safe and healthy?
Am I missing something?

do you see where tras would take this?

No, I don't.

There is currently a system for prescribing HRT to women based on physiology rather than psychology. It is not perfect and we know that HRT carries risks and it isn't suitable for all women. But I still don't see why this would all be dismantled because prescribing cross sex hormones is damaging to men, whether they have had a psychological assessment or not.

the extensive amount of time some people take to try to convince us of their identity suggests they’re not entirely happy with their identity.

But WHY is researching cross sex hormones in men of ANY relevance to how they affect women??

My aunt was prescribed for mh issues. I also know a friend who suffered with severe mh issues after a hysterectomy who was prescribed for this reason too. Both saw improvement. It’s used off-label for all sorts of conditions. All kinds of medicines are

Because a. It wouldn’t just be men, it would be women as trans people aren’t just men and b. You could also look at detransition and c. As some of these people are also women they will also experience menopause too. Therefore all data is interesting and relevant. It’s best to test medicines on the most diverse range of people possible to assess risk best.

Not quite.

Beliefs can not replace reality.

You are asking the impossible.

Otherwise I believe I can fly and this will go badly.
Reality says I will go splat if I insist this and decide to jump off a high cliff.

Because one is replacing hormones the body should have and / or has had. The other is giving a body quantities of a hormone the body is not formed to produce and in the case of female people, has decades of research showing just how harmful they are (for example the East German female athletes).

If you have come across a doctor who is not up to date on the latest HRT menopause research, that is a concern for sure and a real issue. There is now decades of that research finally for them to refer to.

It is not given for mental health reasons in most cases. It is given to address the many symptoms of menopause. Which is not an identity belief in any way.

I can see you believe that replacing existing hormones in the body to a level that provides relief from menopause, a very well established body phase, is somehow comparable to giving large doses of extraneous hormones that the body would never produce if it was healthy. What I don’t understand is how you drew that comparison.

Thanks for trying to clarify why you believe this though.

However, as you point out, the topic is about adolescents. And I agree that if any adult with the capacity to consent wishes to buy hormones for the purposes of extreme body modification, they no doubt will. I don’t believe it should be publicly funded though as I cannot see a reason for that.

Of course, those hormones don’t change a persons sex and no one taking those hormones should believe it gives them any right to access provisions that exclude their sex. Which I believe we also agree on.

@22ztr
I still don't understand why you think it would stop being prescribed for menopausal women.

Yes they do. But the known risks of doing this are also taken into account.

We know that puberty blockers have life changing side effects. That's why their use is limited and heavily restricted to a very narrow group. We know that abuse of testosterone in women cheating in sport has had massive consequences for a large number of athletes.

This seems to go out the window as soon as you say trans.

Menopause is not subjective. And it can be identified by testing.

I was offered peri menopause tests 13 years ago.

Cancer drugs might become illegal for cancer patients because they are harmful to patients with allergies...

There is a case that loss of estrogen in a female body can cause mental health issues, for sure.

But it is not the only reason. And there is no comparison to giving menopause treatment and affirming someone’s purely subjective and not based on material reality belief.

It's actually an offensive comparison to women in this situation too.

@22ztr The only relevance HRT has to men being prescribed such drugs is that when supply is limited it reduces what is available to women. Men shout loudly so if you are concerned about HRT you should be worried about supply levels if drugs needed for women are used for men.

Yes interesting points everyone.
i suppose my thinking is increased research and knowledge of hormone treatments = better and knowledge of lots of other conditions that need hormone treatment.

anyway yes as @Helleofaboresaid we agree on most things. I want any consenting adult to be able to access tjese drugs and for the risks to be well known and available. My argument was if tra campaigning means more research into the side effects of these medicines then good

I don’t think you’ve really understood my points and I explained why research on trans people does not mean research on only men.

I have understood your points.

I think you are missing the point that there isn't enough research on female transitioners and drugs are being given to females on the basis of evidence for men whilst ignoring the known impacts on females with these drugs.

This is a massive issue with this throughout medicine but it gets forgotten in this scenario.

You are just doing the 'but trans people' and ignoring this.

You are comparing male transpeople with menopausal women. Again not ok and not cool.

But this research is being discredited and dismissed. So this isn't happening. It's worse than there being no research. It's good research proving harms which is being undermined deliberately for a political agenda and because transpeople throw toys out of the pram.

This is unhealthy and dangerous in its own right.

I agree with you.

I said some of them will be menopausal women and some effects of hormones will be universal. You are doing that thing again where you look for the worst interpretation and assume I’m not on your side because I’m mildly concerned about drug guidelines being used to limit access to what can be lifesaving treatment for women. Ok sure.

also I don’t really mind offending you because you’re not tiptoeing around my feelings. If you want me to treat you like a delicate flower who can’t cope with alternative viewpoints then please give me the same courtesy back

it will happen. Other academics will reference it. Someone will repeat it with more airtight methodology.

real change is boring and slow im afraid. Do you think people woke up after one study when it was racism? No. We need laws

This is a mood effect directly related to hormone deficiency. Having hormones outside the normal range, whether too high or too low, or a sudden cessation of them, is recognised to cause mood disturbances. This happens with pretty much all hormones. So treating that direct deficiency, excess, or sudden cessation makes sense to improve the effects of that condition, mood disturbances and others.

That is completely different to using hormones to treat a completely different psychological disorder not at all related to a deficiency or excess of the hormones that are given.

THE ENTIRE POINT IS SEX HORMONES ARE PROVEN NOT TO BE UNIVERSAL IN HOW THEY REACT CROSS SEX BECAUSE SEX.

Talk about missing the fundamental point.

You are spectacularly missing the last ten years and the threats from trans activists about this which are intimidating scientists. Not to mention the MASSIVE conflict of interests going on here with Big Pharma.

Right so them increasing bone density in men and women isn’t universal?