Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true

[mardirousse]

You would expect Trans Rights Activists to be concerned about the physical mental health of gender questioning children, yet I haven't seen a single TRA express the slightest concern that gender affirming care might be causing harm to young kids, who they see as transgender. Not here, not on r/transgenderuk, not on x.
They are attacking the credibility of the study, but given its size and the very shocking findings, why aren't at least some of them expressing a little concern that there might be something in it? I mean, these are vulnerable kids, and they're taking really powerful drugs with major long-term consequences, and now it looks like there's evidence that it may be doing the opposite of what it's supposed to...
How could you not be concerned, whatever your agenda? They're kids!
Aren't trans rights activists interested in the right of trans kids to be safe and healthy?
Am I missing something?

I am attempting to clarify your position and also to explain why you have seen the reaction of women to the poster you mentioned.

But in regards to HRT. Why would HRT for women be limited in anyway? Do you think this research will impact HRT access (usually estrogen and progesterone) to women? Why? We are not being treated for gender dysphoria getting menopause treatment? Are you expecting to receive puberty blockers?

Or are you referring to some women now receiving testosterone in menopause? I don’t see that being in anyway at the levels of male people and female people receiving testosterone treatment for gender identity purposes.

Please clarify what your concerns are here because it isn’t clear.

Yes, but it can be hard to read assertions that contain misinformation without countering them.

I want all the drugs to go through menopause and I want drs happy and confident prescribing them. If tras get me that by shouting loudly fab.

TRAs are not going to get you that by shouting loudly.
They shout loudly for themselves, no one else.
They don't give a shit about menopausal women.

Sure, but I think it's a bit off to then complain that a poster has dominated the thread when he's been actively encouraged to by multiple other posters.

I wasnt complaining, I was observing the dynamic.

Where do you see any poster here or any gender critical campaigner arguing that transgender people should be stopped from continuing their hormone treatment?
Ritchie Herron, a vocal detransitioner and campaigner has chosen to continue taking oestrogen although he knows he's not female he can no longer produce testosterone (testicles removed). Testosterone causes his libido to surge which creates huge pain due to his genital mutilation.
No one here wants to remove his access to vital healthcare without which his bones would crumble.we just want to prevent such horrors happening to other young people.

Look this isn’t the most moral viewpoint but if drs are happy to hand them out like sweeties because they know they won’t be sued that makes me happy. If they’re dealing with adults. Not children. I think women too have had hormones gatekept when we need them for menopause.
some interests align and when they do I don’t mind handing the torch over

Women. All women.

You're a man, so you can't understand that. We have to be careful and assess situations all the time with regard to our safety.

You don't. You can pretend to be a woman till you die, but you'll never have to feel that fear.

As far as the prostate gland is concerned, all men are identical.

Transwomen are men, so they have a prostate gland.

I reject the prospect of being moved into men.

But you haven't. You were always with the men, by virtue of your sex. You haven't been moved into a different sex category. You're still in the same one.

Material reality has consistently grouped me into women regardless of any input from me

Oh I don't think this is the case at all.

I still don’t understand.

I don’t see the connection between women getting HRT for menopause (a correct use of the term HRT) and adults getting extraneous hormones for purposes only of extreme body modification for gender identity.

The two scenarios are not even closely related. There is no comparison. The only similarity is that it involves hormones. But if that is the case, you can then use the scenario of any other type of prescription for hormones.

There is no relevance at all.

No going to waste my time on arguments distracting from the topic.

@onepostwonder you display your lack of understanding of research. The researchers may have had an hypothesis about transition not helping - they will have seen plenty of examples - but they wouldnt have known how big the effect was. So you collect a good sized sample, analyse it, realise you can probably get several papers out of this and publish the first. As the differences are substantial you can look to analyse subgroups but getting research as far as publication takes a lot of time and effort and you are not necessarily funded for further work.

They clearly hope to undertake further analysis of their data and maybe you'll see a breakdown by age.

What they have shown is that transition does not appear to help adolescents mental health. The drugs are known to be harmful to phyical health. Until it is possible to identify a subgroup who do benefit there is no ethical justification for any doctor to support transition in future.

How is it really that different? You’re replacing hormones that aren’t there. If drs are used to doing this and aren’t worried about getting sued, it makes it easier for me. For me I hope just for vanity purposes but I’ve heard of hormones being needed to avoid feeling suicidal.
so tell me, apart from the condition (menopause vs gender dysphoria) how is doctor confidence and knowledge in prescribing hormone medicines increasing not in my benefit?

The clue is in the name Hormone Replacement Therapy. Hormones given for gender dysphoria aren't replacing anything.

You are comparing two different scenarios.

ETA: why would doctors start being sued for prescribing drugs to menopausal women within the guidlines?

Yeah but by studying the impact on transition you can reasonably infer that a human reacts to x hormone with blah because you have ftm mtf and detransitioners and then you could apply that to hrt no?

to answer your eta

it’s not so much it’s dangerous and I’ll get sued it’s more I don’t know how bad the side effects of these meds are so I’ll err on the side of caution and avoid them so I don’t end up in a lawsuit later

It’s not a morally great stance tbh it’s all about cancer risks. You can’t prescribe hrt to someone with cancer and symptoms can overlap

What?

How would the effects of oestrogen on a male body be any way relevant to its effects on a menopausal female body?

Far more to it. Sex, age, dose, context, history etc

100%.

No but you can learn some useful things like how it supports bone density in both sexes etc. which does benefit women

I really don't understand your argument. HRT might become illegal for menopausal women because it poses risks to men who take oestrogen for gender dysphoria?

No if you start regulating hormones too much you get more hoops to jump through. The cancer risks make it hard enough for women. Do we need to add psychological assements too for example? Does a dr need to confirm menopause? How can you confirm such a subjective thing?

do you see where tras would take this?

But we already know it supports bone density in women. Why is investigating this in men relevant to women?

Because you’re assuming we know everything there is to know and I don’t think there is enough research to say we do