Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true

[mardirousse]

You would expect Trans Rights Activists to be concerned about the physical mental health of gender questioning children, yet I haven't seen a single TRA express the slightest concern that gender affirming care might be causing harm to young kids, who they see as transgender. Not here, not on r/transgenderuk, not on x.
They are attacking the credibility of the study, but given its size and the very shocking findings, why aren't at least some of them expressing a little concern that there might be something in it? I mean, these are vulnerable kids, and they're taking really powerful drugs with major long-term consequences, and now it looks like there's evidence that it may be doing the opposite of what it's supposed to...
How could you not be concerned, whatever your agenda? They're kids!
Aren't trans rights activists interested in the right of trans kids to be safe and healthy?
Am I missing something?

Do you also understand the impact a female person's decision to have testosterone in male quantities does to the children they choose to get pregnant and have? The testosterone that remains in above female levels for even more than 5 years after stopping the treatment?

Do you expect that a teenaged female fully understands the ramifications of this treatment they are agreeing to when the clinicians provide them a list that doesn't go through each and every issue with thoroughness?

Do you even have any idea of the effects on the female body of puberty blockers and testosterone? yet you discuss it all so breezily from your male perspective and think your male perspective is more informed than ours.

Your posts have indeed shown how little understanding male people have of the health issues of female people have and how quick they are to dismiss them as significant issues that are little discussed publicly. In fact, the insinuation that we are ignorant bigots ( the comparison to abortion protestors in front of clinics) is just the fall back tactic of many male posters on this board who feel they can shame female people pointing out the issues.

But the other women around me manage to be doing other things as well.

What makes you think that we don't? Could you be more offensive to women?

Sex based discrimination is linked to sex, yes.

Sex discrimination can also be on the basis of perception and on the basis of association. Read the Equality Act.

Way to misread what I wrote. Fertility preservation is for the benefit of the child.

opportunity to bank sperm or eggs

You can't bank a uterus. Surrogacy comes with increased risk to the mother (for avoidance of doubt, that's the woman giving birth) and baby. If a woman wants a child, the ethical action is to gestate it herself or adopt a child who has been taken into care.

Again, it's the women and girls who lose out under this youth transition agenda.

Apparently not. Female teenagers should just be offered high stroke risk fertility treatment to then harvest eggs before putting their bodies into artificial menopause, maybe permanently, as a child still.

Sure it could be life shortening but people can die from paracetamol poisoning.

Nothing to see here.

So, what's the rate of lifelong harm per thousand paracetamol takers versus the rate of lifelong harm per thousand recipients of transition surgery? Because you can't be harmed by a surgery you never have. Absolute rates across the entire population are misleading, and you know it.

There's nothing "bad faith" about reminding people that sometimes war is the least-bad option and the youth who sign up to serve under those circumstances are rightly lauded. If war isn't the least-bad option, blame the politicians, not the armed forces personnel.

I don't believe in gender stereotyping but some traits are much more common among women than men,and vice versa

Especially caring about the well-being of other females is a very female trait

@onepostwonder couldn't care less about female people

If abortion fucked women up the way that FTM transition does, picketing abortion clinics would be justified. But it doesn't, so take your false analogy elsewhere.

I went to yoga and there are 12 notifications.

Trans men exist. They undergo treatment that includes HRT. There are protocols that mediate unwanted effects of the reduction of oestrogen. You are arguing for the cessation of trans healthcare for trans men.

Sex realists can twist things five ways to Sunday but it is not anti-feminist or misogynist to believe trans men have a right to trans healthcare.

The health protocols do not completely mitigate the effects of testosterone, with 95% of females suffering some form of pelvic floor dysfunction. Topical oestrogen does not mitigate this.

And remember it’s female children and adolescents being given testosterone.

But that’s “trans health care” in a nutshell. There needs to be a treatment to fix the problems caused by the treatment for the problems caused by the treatment for the problems. This is known as the cascade of intervention. No one involved in “trans health care” ever asks if people shouldn’t be getting the first treatment in the first place because that would involve properly defining the problem they are treating.

You do though, onepostwonder, because you think there are children and teenagers getting treatments they shouldn’t. Do you ever tell people involved in “trans health care” they shouldn’t even start it?

How can you still support current “trans health care” when you admit there are people who shouldn’t be on the cascade of intervention?

We are talking about children!

And you continue to dismiss that by deflecting to talking about adults. And you continue with the dismissal of the negative impacts of female people and then the demonisation of the people who are trying to tell you that perhaps you fucking don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to female people’s health care. And you then deflect to discussing agency.

Have you wondered why you do it?

It is a commonality that you share with nearly every other male person who has a transgender identity that comes to this board that then ends up doing the same. Male people not wanting to acknowledge that they know fucking nothing about female bodies while telling us that they have female bodies.

Then not wanting to acknowledge that the impacts on female children and young adults has a far greater negative impact than on male people and yet… we hear from those female people just how little they have been told by the clinicians and by the community about the negative impacts that are almost certain. It is like they are expendable as long as male people get the access to treatment they demand.

The negative impacts of the treatment, that you onepost have dismissed with deflecting to ‘they can have their eggs harvested’ and when the fact that these are children and at high risk of stroke to do this, you deflect with ‘they should have the option’ as if that dismissal makes it any fucking better. Then comes the ‘but I know some who have had children’ without understanding that we already know the impacts on those children are likely to be, but to you, as long as those women are freely choosing, you don’t give a rats arse.

You fall back to ‘but topical estrogen’ as if it is some fucking kind of miracle. But yeah… just like paracetamol poisoning. And discussing it is just like protesting abortion and hating trans people.

Thanks for again demonstrating the inherent misogyny of treatment protocols for extreme body modifications for identity purposes. Don’t worry, there have been plenty before you.

I guess acknowledging the significant negative impact long term on female people receiving this care, would shine a beacon on the damage being done.

And the last couple of pages have also highlighted the reason why male people should fucking not be in positions on any panel, committee and board and that placement considered ‘female’.

For all their insistence they are female and have been for decades, they don’t understand the issues that female people face. Yet they are very fucking happy to talk over the top of female people to focus the discussion on female issues back on male issues.

It is nothing to celebrate for female people having male people take a place on a board / panel / committee and categorise it as being a female place. It is the very opposite of female representation.

”The health protocols do not completely mitigate the effects of testosterone, with 95% of females suffering some form of pelvic floor dysfunction. Topical oestrogen does not mitigate this”

No. It doesn’t. But apparently apply some estrogen and it fixes it all.

There are protocols that mediate unwanted effects of the reduction of oestrogen

FFS. Topical estrogen is supposed to be the fix all! Is that it?

There are protocols that mediate unwanted effects of the reduction of oestrogen and yet female people are still reporting life limiting negative side effects to testosterone. Fuck knows how female children are expected to cope.

If estrogen produced by functional ovaries cannot counter the damage testosterone does to a female body, how the fuck is topical estrogen supposed to fix those effects or prevent them. It is also like those female athletes dosed with testosterone in East Germany never fucking existed.

Do you ever stop to think about what we are saying onepostwonder’or are you so determined that you know everything about female bodies (because you saying you fucking have a female body) that you just consider anything we say as being wrong and hateful? Will it ever occur to you that perhaps we understand the negative impacts on female people with more fucking depth than you ever will?

You either misread what I wrote (possible) or are ignoring what I wrote (equally possible). It doesn't matter, because there's a nice shiny straw man to be polished.

Your straw man about my own body and my own life have nothing to do with how I feel about this.

Based on the constant stream of half truths I've read from sex realists about the outcomes of healthcare for trans women, I seriously discount the accuracy what I read here. I know you spend more time speaking and thinking about trans people than I do. There’s no doubt.

I trust the clinicians and experts to be better aware of outcomes and protocols. They appear to currently support prescribing testosterone to trans male youth, so I defer to their experience and expertise.

I as a non-expert have no right to demand the experts cease treating trans boys and men. (Or trans girls and women, for that matter)

Edited to add that I expect you to respond with selections from the sex critical library of counter-experts to the world's major medicine and health organisations. These people offer opinions rather than well-defined protocols. The outcomes of practice could (and should) be better studied, but they are what we have.

Yes. We understand. You have no interest in what is happening to children and what the outcomes are. You feel no interest to investigate and you will just continue to defend and dimiss the treatment and demonise anyone raising the issues.

We understand.

As I said, we have seen it regularly from male posters with transgender identities for years here. Nothing new to see here.

I trust the clinicians and experts to be better aware of outcomes and protocols

Who, WPATH?

what are your views on the Cass review?

I wholly believe you believe that. It affects me zilch.

The outcomes of practice could (and should) be better studied, but they are what we have.

Yeah… no worries. Maybe some topical estrogen will fix any issues.

So on one hand, denounce the critics of the treatments while at the same time admitting there are issues but hey… we have what we have and that is enough to then denounce the critics.

Thanks again for making your position clear.

I know.

But apparently those leaked files where they admit the issues that the denounced critics raise is to be ignored.

National medical associations, national psychiatric bodies, nursing organizations, and yes some (I don't know how many) members of WPATH and probably the non-US constituent *PATHS around the world.

Yes. The likelihood of the negative impacts of testosterone on a female body impacting you : zilch.

That was the point.

I should have been pedantically clear that I was referring to vaginal estrogen creme, which I have mentioned several times previously, rather than oestrogel, which I am guessing you believe me to be referencing.

My position appears to be whatever you decide to formulate in your posts.