feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

Because women are facing death threats, rape threats, threats of violence, doxxing and hate. Do you go on trans groups and tell them to be respectful and kind? If not, why not?

Is the line advocating for a woman to be raped with a splintery rolling pin? Because that’s what one of the oh so nice males with a trans identity you’re telling us to be nice to is saying he wants someone to do to a woman who’s only crime is to say no to men in female spaces? Or is there a line beyond that?

I believe there are a small subset of people who have the sincerely held belief that they are born in the wrong body, and who experience intense anguish and mental suffering with their physical form. Whether this suffering would be best alleviated through medication and therapy, or through cross dressing, cross sex hormones and surgery is a case randomised controlled trials and the conchrane review
HOWEVER
This subset is TINY. I believe that most people who identify as trans do not have this sincerely held belief.
There are opportunistic predators like Isla Bryson and Katie Dolatowski, maybe even Veronica Ivy and co could be under this umbrella - not a rapist but certainly opportunistic and predatory and shouldn’t be let anywhere near any space with females in.
There are also deeply unhappy young adults with shed loads of comorbidities and too much time online who want not be themselves. I think it’s partly another subculture, the 21st century equivalent of the emo, and I have quite substantial doubts about whether many of those who proclaim their trans status online act upon it in real life . It makes me think quite a lot of the pro ana forums. Some people there absolutely mad and starving themselves to death and keeping to the diet and the thinspo really doing its thing, and the majority just wannabes, who might feel a bit bad about eating tea after an afternoon of snacking , or have a panic about being a bit chubby, but are unlikely to be sectioned.
But those who do put their money where their mouth is, I’m not convinced it’s anything other than puberty is shit , change is scary, the world feels out of control (and demanding people around you change the pronoun they’d use is a good way of imposing a sense of restraint on the world and being on your terms- and thanks to the leg work of better a trans child than a dead child, much less effort than counting calories and doing sit ups), sex based stereotypes have gained massive traction and if you don’t adhere to them you must be the other sex. There’s no nuance (oh the irony of the binary)
And then there is the cohort who identify as trans and then do the things that are sex. based - women identifying as men who become pregnant and become mothers . Who can also find the word breast triggering. Wtf. THey surely can’t have the sincerely held belief that they are in the wrong body and suffer tremendous anguish if they go and do That.
These people are not going to be best served by my humouring them and affirming their position. Sex based stereotypes need to be cast back into the fires from whence they came, not reinforced by agreeing that oh if you don’t adhere you are of course trans. And I shouldn’t be expected to suspend my disbelief in anything other than the theatre

But what is “trans”?

Genuine question. Any definition seems to just rely on stereotypes of what it is to be male or female, when in fact (literal fact), what it is to be male or female is an immutable characteristic.

I wouldn’t dream of telling a man who thinks he’s a woman that he wasn’t trans. That’s not for me to say. Thats not the same as not telling him he’s a woman. If he finds that hurtful, that’s for him to manage, not for me to change my language usage

Equity.

Yes, I’m challenging the OP who suggests language doesn’t matter and if the neighbour asks to be addressed as she then they should be regardless of any other facts or evidence to the contrary.

I dont really care much about 'trans' issues tbh OP. I want women's rights protected in law. Exactly as the Supreme Court describes they should be.

I don't lie, so I correctly sex people, when their sex is pertinent, and avoid mention when its not.

If some creep who has made rape threats keeps popping up to harass women then yes, I am as fucking rude as I am allowed to be. I don't give a fuck about upsetting abusive men.

If that's who I think it is I'm sending you all my best. I do hope you find a way to peace with your situation.

" Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured."

This is given as an example of transphobia and yet if you listen to the testimony of Jonni Skinner, it would have been doing him a kindness to have not jumped to affirm a trans identity.

While I'm not GC @giraffezoo I can see the logic in your argument. The second group are the reason that I mostly do not engage in the trans debate on MN. I don't want to deal with the hate.

Yes, me too. I think @changedusernameforthis1 and I have had positive exchanges in the past (both under different usernames!) and I wish her all the very best.

I know. I can cope with the sexism and misogyny, but people laughing and mocking women who are explaining why they need single sex spaces is beyond the pale. I know there was one poster who told a rape survivor who was explaining why males in female spaces traumatised her that she needed to suck it up as the feelings of the male were paramount. I take it that’s the hate you mean?

Or is the type of hate @Slightyamusedandsilly talking about the “die in a grease fire” kind words from TRAs?

If I use female pronouns for a man and vice versa, I'm lying to him/her as well as myself.
I'd definitely call it 'lying'

Mods are quick to delete ' transphobia' so do notify them OP, if you see it.
OP- can I also recommend 'break it down for me' on this board?
Very useful.

Or the”women deserve to be raped with a splintery rolling pin hate? @Slightyamusedandsilly is that what you meant?

That’s morally disgusting too. but an eye for an eye and the world goes blind. I think the things some TRAs say are vile and I would never say the same back becuase I’m British and I like British laws about respect and tolerance.

What is it that GC women are saying that is equivalent to that vile threat?

An eye for an eye suggests both sides are behaving in the same way

What do you really mean by “deal with the hate”?

How does this “hate” manifest itself?

Is it just people engaging in some critical
thinking about the proposition that someone’s sex is what they say it is, rather than what it actually is? Or with the idea that we should use “gender identity” rather than sex to organise separate provision when it is needed.

Is it people saying that surgery and hormones don’t change a human being's sex?

Is it people saying that believing that you are somehow the opposite sex to your actual body is always a false belief as it is visibly and materially untrue?

Is it people not wanting to comply with the demand that we refer to a man as “she” when talking about him because he believes he is a woman (or possibly just gets off on pretending to be one)?

Is “be kind” actually about supporting someone in their delusional belief because we recognise their extreme psychological fragility? Is that healthy in the long term? Is it always best to act as if someone’s false belief is real? Why aren’t we expected to uncritically affirm the beliefs that other people hold e.g. in religion, or conspiracy theories?

Is it when people might advocate for addressing the primary psychological reasons for someone adopting a cross-sex identity before doing surgery on their genitals or dosing them with high levels of opposite sex hormones?

What is wrong with any of these talking points?

Why don’t you engage with the serious discussion in good faith instead of hand waving it all away as “hate”?

Im not saying they are. Im just saying how does what they’re saying justify nasty comments back? It’s just my pov. I view respect as something I aspire to with everyone, if someone doesn’t show it to me I don’t retaliate I just remove access or disengage, it’s a very protective quality

What type of nasty comments do you think people are saying?

Is you're a man a nasty comment?

Until recent years being transgender was considered a MH issue by the WHO, this was changed due to the unhappiness of trans people with it being considered a MH issue and the stigma it caused. I don't think that declassification did anyone any favours tbh.

I also don't understand why people are horrified at it being considered a MH issue - is having a MH issue such a terrible thing that we should be horrified by the idea?

Thank you for so clearly articulating the ableist "I'm alright Jack" attitude of the trans people who lobbied to get an opt-out from mental health stigma for themselves, instead of standing in solidarity with the other mentally-ill people to fight stigma for all of us. I have struggled with articulating this for years.

The Finnish study would indicate that they should have stood with us after all.

If you’re not gonna actually read my posts I will also disengage. Did you read the first sentence?

You know, however many years back when I first started I was concerned to be polite and respectful.

I got tired, and angry. Women have lost so much, we have been abused, attacked, smeared, monstered, threatened, doxxed, arrested, shunned, sacked, and more.

Aside from all that, children have been harmed. Sterilised. Been sold bullshit and betrayed.

Women spoke up at great personal risk and many have lost careers, friends, family members. But we organised and we took it through all the courts, up through the whole appeal process. Paid our tenners and made our secret networks, because in 2026 women can't meet up in public without men in balaclavas screaming at us. And we won. But only at great personal cost to a great many women you will probably never hear of.

It is hard to remain calm and polite in the face of so much harm done and still continuuing to be done.