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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

feminism or transphobia?

1000 replies

giraffezoo · 08/04/2026 14:54

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
mattala · 09/04/2026 16:24

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/04/2026 16:22

Why not, out of interest? Why so coy?

because I annoy people in this role haha and I wouldn’t want someone finding me and calling me a terf for my views on here.
inliterally change my user name every few days. I have to be a neutral blob with no opinions

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/04/2026 16:24

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:14

Not all but some and I’ve literally said what I think is probematic. I’m not going to argue why I think posting things on a board teenagers might read is problematic because there are far worse things out there to worry about that what I see here but every time I post I do think who could see this?

Personally. I worry about how my granddaughter and her friends might be exposed to trans ideology on-line; as that is where it is diseminated.

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 16:27

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:19

I can’t and won’t disclose my line of work but nice try

This isn't about you, it's about the people you 'counsel'.

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:30

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 16:27

This isn't about you, it's about the people you 'counsel'.

They know I am in no way a therapist and that we need to have an honest open and frank convo for me to fully be able to support them. What I support then with is to then piss off the right people. Why this is important in the context of male violence you fill in the blanks. This is also free which means no exploitation

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 16:37

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:30

They know I am in no way a therapist and that we need to have an honest open and frank convo for me to fully be able to support them. What I support then with is to then piss off the right people. Why this is important in the context of male violence you fill in the blanks. This is also free which means no exploitation

That doesn't detract from the fact that you are playing with fire if you are interacting with people with severe psychiatric problems in any way other than just giving practical support and signposting them to professional help.

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:38

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 16:37

That doesn't detract from the fact that you are playing with fire if you are interacting with people with severe psychiatric problems in any way other than just giving practical support and signposting them to professional help.

Yes but what if that professional help is failing them? What might you need help with after that? I’m really not saying much more than this now its too outing

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 16:39

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:38

Yes but what if that professional help is failing them? What might you need help with after that? I’m really not saying much more than this now its too outing

Hmmm...

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 16:40

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:30

They know I am in no way a therapist and that we need to have an honest open and frank convo for me to fully be able to support them. What I support then with is to then piss off the right people. Why this is important in the context of male violence you fill in the blanks. This is also free which means no exploitation

In that case, I'm surprised you haven't responded to - in fact I got the impression you hadn't read - my posts about my personal experience of gender distress, and my personal, informed suggestion about the best way to deal with it.

Nobody is obliged to read my post obvsSmilebut when you wrote
Idk if someone tells me they’re in pain or suffering and I say don’t be so blood daft I think that’s highly problematic. What the solution is idk and I don’t pretend to have the answers

I thought that you'd be interested in a suggested way to respond positively and supportively to people experiencing gender distress.

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:42

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 16:40

In that case, I'm surprised you haven't responded to - in fact I got the impression you hadn't read - my posts about my personal experience of gender distress, and my personal, informed suggestion about the best way to deal with it.

Nobody is obliged to read my post obvsSmilebut when you wrote
Idk if someone tells me they’re in pain or suffering and I say don’t be so blood daft I think that’s highly problematic. What the solution is idk and I don’t pretend to have the answers

I thought that you'd be interested in a suggested way to respond positively and supportively to people experiencing gender distress.

There’s over 658 posts here so I think that’s why I missed it. Is it middle start or end of thread I’ll go read now. Lots of different convos and cross posting to keep track of

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 17:35

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:42

There’s over 658 posts here so I think that’s why I missed it. Is it middle start or end of thread I’ll go read now. Lots of different convos and cross posting to keep track of

no prob at allSmile it's just that my personal experience seemed relevant. I'll go back and check the times they were posted.

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 17:38

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 12:05

I share your concern for people who experience alienation from the reality of their biological sex. If gender dysphoria exists - I know it is a contested term - I had it as a child, and I was so unhappy about growing up to be an adult human female that I considered suicide when I was about 10 or 11.

The way to be caring and supportive of people with that kind of distress is not to pretend to them that they can forget about their actual biological sex and become the opposite sex - this is what is wrong with the 'Transwomen are women' slogan - it gives false hope to the kind of people you are referring to.

It is not #bekind to encourage people to believe that if they take hormones or p wear different clothes or have surgery, that will solve their problem and salve their distress.
It the caring and supportive thing to do is to help them accept their own bodies for what they are, to reject the damaging idea that they were 'born in the wrong body' - nobody is! - and that by making some changes, some of which are damaging to their health, the general public will start seeing them as members of their preferred sex.

I was so lucky that nobody offered me puberty blockers, hormones, preferred pronouns, gender neutral toilets, surgery when I was a young girl. It's scary to think what road I might have gone down.

I was lucky that nobody thought it would #bekind to encourage me to think that I was not female and would not grow up to be an adult human female.
So I eventually made peace with who I was, what I was, what sex I had been born into, and grew up as a gender-non-conforming woman.

The truth, and loving support to accept the truth, is the way to deal with the distress of feeling alienated from your own body.

Actually it's easiest just to repost them, mattala! Here's one of them.

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 17:40

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 12:15

I've just seen your post, Heggettypeg, and it illustrates what I said in mine about the truth being kinder than going along with transgender identities.

A biological boy who thinks he is a girl, and should therefore be able to join in girl-only activities, does not need to be told he is a lovely lovely daughter who is being hated on by transphobic bigots.

He needs to be helped, in a loving and supportive way, to accept the truth: that he was born male, and always will be male, he is a boy, and how can we help you be a happier boy? how can we support you to be a brave boy who doesn't feel he has to be a rats and snails and puppy-dogs' tails kind of boy, but whatever kind of boy you want to be, and grow up to be whatever kind of man you want to be?

The truth that I was going to grow up to be a woman was difficult for me to accept, but believe me, living as your true self, at one with the body you were born into, is a lot easier than a lifetime of simulation and/or medication.

Here's the second, mattala,

EdithStourton · 09/04/2026 17:45

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 08/04/2026 15:06

Gosh there's a lot of shocked wondering going on today. Multiple threads of it.

Uni vacations innit.

They should be revising or washing up in the local pub or giving serious thought to their dissertations, but a bit of online campaigning and bringing the Light of Truth to the stupid middle-aged mummies seems more entertaining...

They kinda forget that the mummies have been round the block a few times and quite a few of us have relevant qualifications as well as lots of experience coming out of their ears. And the ability to search for proper information.

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:16

MarieDeGournay · 09/04/2026 17:40

Here's the second, mattala,

Thank you for sharing these are very insightful

Catiette · 09/04/2026 18:38

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:00

I can’t see the original post I somehow missed this.
yes until today I’d never heard of this condition.

Which is why I think language choices when discussing things that give people pain should be chosen carefully and mindfully. Because you’re saying I’m worse for saying telling someone not to be daft and not to make light of serious conditions? I’m not really sure I follow your line of thinking or how you thought I was worse than others? If you disclosed that and someone said lol I’m a shark in the one saying that’s problematic.

i never said it was inconceivable, ive said i don’t know many people who wake up in severe distress because they can’t become a lemon and I’m sorry for your pain but my attitude standards. I was saying mocking comments are inappropriate when a person discloses pain.

Long post, as journey over and pulling stuff together. If it's too long for posters to read/respond to, no worries, just scroll on by. But replies hopefully awaited if possible from @mattala and @giraffezoo.

This post really gets to the heart of our disagreement, Mattala. I've now read everything up to it, and get the impression we're still not on the same wavelength re. where I personally saw bias (prejudice was probably an unhelpfully strong term) in the first post of yours to which I replied. The following may help?!

Above, you say, "I think language choices when discussing things that give people pain should be chosen carefully and mindfully." I agree.

With regard to this, I can see your argument that the lemon metaphor could be distressing to trans-identifying individuals. @GenderlessVoid has also opened both our eyes to another demographic's suffering on this front (I was so sorry to read this). My original post focussed on a third group: women in the sense of female-bodied adult humans.

Can you see that I had to add a definition there to clarify my meaning? The word previously used to describe that group has been degraded so much that it's no longer possible to refer to it without wordy explanations and qualifiers. I personally see that as hugely problematic. I'm still not sure where you stand on it, though. Your initial post suggested to me that you didn't really see it as an issue. Subsequent posts have focussed on AI (again, not using it!) and, still, trans people's pain. So I remain curious about your views on the women?

In recent pages, Taztoy shared some of her personal trauma, including asking, "Can you explain to me how me thinking a man can present as he chooses but cannot change his sex is mocking? I’m really interested and asking genuinely." You later use the words, "Imagine if it was someone who was talking about their real pain and you went and compared it to something trivial and silly." I hope Taztoy doesn't mind me saying: this is exactly what's happening to her. Just to pick one example of many: of the huge proportion of women who have endured rape or abuse, a significant proportion will find the BBC's description of high-profile rapists as women an incredibly distressing trivialisation of their sex-based trauma.

I mean, it's not really even a matter of "someone talking about their real pain" and it being compared to "something trivial and silly" - if only it were as simple as that. I'd argue that it's something far more disturbing and, frankly, earth-shattering to them. It denies their physical reality. It's obscuring public understanding of risk profiles. It is, by extension, also distorting political debate and democratic norms. It's huge. And, to return to your focus on the individual, it is, meanwhile, unutterly distressing to many individual women. AprilMizzel goes into this more deeply in her post at 1313.

We don't hear about these women much - certainly not as much as we do about trans women. Many are afraid to speak up. When you look at what some have been dragged to court for, it's not hard to see why.

So what I and some other posters are seeking to understand is 1) Do you recognise this perspective - that trans women's appropriation of "woman" and, yes, the pronoun "she" is offensive, humiliating, viscerally distressing etc. - does exist, and 2) Do you recognise its validity (ie. perhaps not agree with it, but at least see that some people may justifiably feel this way as opposed to simply being bigotted)?

I'd also be interested to hear from Giraffezoo re. 2), above, especially in response to your description of "transphobia" and "the idea of transphobia" (or whatever your words were) as being essentially the same. I'd say the two are in fact vitally different: for me, "the idea of transphobia" is the current cultural currency (the largely unquestioned belief that it's "kind" to use preferred pronouns), and the other must be reserved for actual bigotry. I believe that, in confusing the two, we do transpeople a disservice, too - as others have pointed out - in leaving no word (once again!) to name something that needs a name: actual hatred.

Speaking of cultural currency, to draw to a close...

Mattala, you also say, "Im saying mocking any pain is distasteful and not something I like to partake in due to my moral reasons. Which I think is due to growing up in a culture that drums tolerance into you from a young age." To me, this is actually the crux of it. We're living in a culture that's beating an aggressive drum of tolerance to transwomen at the expense of women. I think many people have accepted this unquestioningly, in large part because of eg. the BBC and main political parties effectively proscribing the GC perspective for so long. That saying TWAW and calling males "she" is fundamentally good, preventing distress, was always an arbitrary moral decision. In an alternative universe somewhere, to say the exact same things could easily be seen as utter anathema - appallingly cruel - because in that wonderful universe, women are valued more highly.

My feeling is that the greatest oppression is surely the one that is least visible of all - even to the average good-hearted, thinking person.

BettyBooper · 09/04/2026 18:41

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:19

I can’t and won’t disclose my line of work but nice try

I don't want you to?

You appear to think you are unbiased, non-judgemental and neutral, but your posts don't convey that to me. That is not a personal attack, just an observation.

The language you use reminds me of that which is constantly drummed into those working in government institutions and charitable sector etc.

That training which warns against 'unconscious bias', but also demands a particular viewpoint and stance as 'morally superior ' and 'correct'. Anyone who questions it must be 're-educated' (see recent employment tribunals of NHS staff).

You said you've had 'tolerance' drummed into you. But absolute tolerance leads to tolerating what should not be tolerated. It breaks down barriers that should exist to protect us. It is actually an intolerant position because it silences opposing views.

🤷

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:52

BettyBooper · 09/04/2026 18:41

I don't want you to?

You appear to think you are unbiased, non-judgemental and neutral, but your posts don't convey that to me. That is not a personal attack, just an observation.

The language you use reminds me of that which is constantly drummed into those working in government institutions and charitable sector etc.

That training which warns against 'unconscious bias', but also demands a particular viewpoint and stance as 'morally superior ' and 'correct'. Anyone who questions it must be 're-educated' (see recent employment tribunals of NHS staff).

You said you've had 'tolerance' drummed into you. But absolute tolerance leads to tolerating what should not be tolerated. It breaks down barriers that should exist to protect us. It is actually an intolerant position because it silences opposing views.

🤷

Im heavily biased and definitely not neutral but im aware of that and try to be. I’ve made my psotion clear it’s not neutral. I know people have done bad stuff to do you. People have done bad stuff to me. And I like to think I contribute to this world by not being the kind of person who does it back
maybe my training has drummed that into me idk

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:56

@catietteto answer the first question I don’t care what pronouns you use. It’s your decision and it has no impact on my life

idk I think there’s a moral line. I’m the first to question thjngs. I quickly noticed when i started using these boards how agreesibley it was it was appearing in my algorithm. I shared suspicions on what the reason for that might be. I’m a conspiracy theorist. I believe ai is the Orwellian thought police, psychiatry js soma and America is going back to mein kampf. I guess maybe I police myself a bit too much. You want me to be more weird I’ll be more weird

Catiette · 09/04/2026 19:12

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:56

@catietteto answer the first question I don’t care what pronouns you use. It’s your decision and it has no impact on my life

idk I think there’s a moral line. I’m the first to question thjngs. I quickly noticed when i started using these boards how agreesibley it was it was appearing in my algorithm. I shared suspicions on what the reason for that might be. I’m a conspiracy theorist. I believe ai is the Orwellian thought police, psychiatry js soma and America is going back to mein kampf. I guess maybe I police myself a bit too much. You want me to be more weird I’ll be more weird

Edited

I didn't intend to say this, but since you ask, I am finding your posts a bit weird, tbh, and have been for a while.

I think I've been pretty patient. In the face of entertainingly persistent accusations of AI-use and a fairly consistently snide tone, I've been pretty courteous. Above (reflecting on where I could gave infuriated you so much!) I read back what I'd written, decided my main slip was in saying your view was prejudiced, and acknowledge this.

It's clear to readers that this is something about which I care deeply. Meanwhile, you've said that you believe in using language carefully, speaking respectfully - especially where a poster may be experiencing pain - and seeking to resist bias. You even refer to bearing in mind a random teen could be reading this stuff. And you appear to be involved in some kind of counselling role.

And yet, despite this, you respond increasingly rudely and bizarrely to me.

It doesn't add up, and it does worry me a bit. I mean, I'm cool with it myself. But, at risk of being patronising (which is where my posts do sometimes go wrong, in my earnestness I can sound a bit smug 😅) - I really hope you're taking some of what we're saying on board and can extend more empathy and respect to people with my views.

mattala · 09/04/2026 19:22

Catiette · 09/04/2026 19:12

I didn't intend to say this, but since you ask, I am finding your posts a bit weird, tbh, and have been for a while.

I think I've been pretty patient. In the face of entertainingly persistent accusations of AI-use and a fairly consistently snide tone, I've been pretty courteous. Above (reflecting on where I could gave infuriated you so much!) I read back what I'd written, decided my main slip was in saying your view was prejudiced, and acknowledge this.

It's clear to readers that this is something about which I care deeply. Meanwhile, you've said that you believe in using language carefully, speaking respectfully - especially where a poster may be experiencing pain - and seeking to resist bias. You even refer to bearing in mind a random teen could be reading this stuff. And you appear to be involved in some kind of counselling role.

And yet, despite this, you respond increasingly rudely and bizarrely to me.

It doesn't add up, and it does worry me a bit. I mean, I'm cool with it myself. But, at risk of being patronising (which is where my posts do sometimes go wrong, in my earnestness I can sound a bit smug 😅) - I really hope you're taking some of what we're saying on board and can extend more empathy and respect to people with my views.

Edited

I have no disrespect for you views. It is the same way would respect someone with Islam. I’m not really sure how that last post was weird. You’ve basically told me I’m too neutral: I’ve told you why - because I tend to lean towards explanations other people find weird.
i just think for me there is a moral line I won’t cross and some things do. I respect your views but realistically why would I police them? I don’t know you. What you go around calling people has no interest in my life. Would I tell someone to their face I think their beliefs are wrong as directly as you? Probably not. But I have never once told anyone what to think. Instead I’ve repeatedly explained my boundaries.
i asked why it was ai because it was completely weird, you said I was comparing women’s body’s to lemons and it did make me go wtaf

Catiette · 09/04/2026 19:27

I'm honestly beginning to find your line of thought a bit hard to follow. Thanks for responding, but I'm calling it a day.

I will, however, take away the fabulous line

i asked why it was ai because it was completely weird, you said I was comparing women’s body’s to lemons and it did make me go wtaf

as one of the best ever misrepresentations of a post asking difficult questions, and

You’ve basically told me I’m too neutral

as one of the best misunderstandings.

mattala · 09/04/2026 19:29

Catiette · 09/04/2026 19:27

I'm honestly beginning to find your line of thought a bit hard to follow. Thanks for responding, but I'm calling it a day.

I will, however, take away the fabulous line

i asked why it was ai because it was completely weird, you said I was comparing women’s body’s to lemons and it did make me go wtaf

as one of the best ever misrepresentations of a post asking difficult questions, and

You’ve basically told me I’m too neutral

as one of the best misunderstandings.

Well maybe rather than insulting me (after telling me I’ve insulted you) maybe you could make your thoughts a bit clearer to follow. Because the lemon thing was bizarre. The thinking I’ve disrespected your beliefs is bizarre. The thinking of my boundaries is bizarre. Genuinely; your posts are bizarre to me. I don’t know how you reach the conclusions you do.
have a good day

mattala · 09/04/2026 19:31

Catiette · 09/04/2026 19:27

I'm honestly beginning to find your line of thought a bit hard to follow. Thanks for responding, but I'm calling it a day.

I will, however, take away the fabulous line

i asked why it was ai because it was completely weird, you said I was comparing women’s body’s to lemons and it did make me go wtaf

as one of the best ever misrepresentations of a post asking difficult questions, and

You’ve basically told me I’m too neutral

as one of the best misunderstandings.

And this is coming from someone who strongly suspects the USA purposefully brought aids to Africa to suppress the population; so it’s not like I’m new to weird ass theories if they’re well explained.
kike I said, lots of words. Not much substance I understand

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 09/04/2026 20:01

And this is coming from someone who strongly suspects the USA purposefully brought aids to Africa to suppress the population

Yeah, that's just fruit loop territory now. You may not be the best person to counselling anyone, stop and consider the damage you may be doing to the people your trying to 'help'.

Underthinker · 09/04/2026 20:02

"I’m the first to question thjngs. I quickly noticed when i started using these boards how agreesibley it was it was appearing in my algorithm. I shared suspicions on what the reason for that might be. I’m a conspiracy theorist. I believe ai is the Orwellian thought police, psychiatry js soma and America is going back to mein kampf"

I'm torn between wanting to know what the hell any of this means and being really glad that I don't.

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