feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

Feminism is a movement to liberate women, not advance the rights of men; and its not controversial to say humans cannot change sex. We don't have to submit to the demands of men, and its ok to say 'no'.

If you are offended by something a woman has said then take it up with her. You might want to reflect on why you reacted that way first.

I'm a gender critical feminist. I'm interested in improving the world for women and girls

I would never use female pronouns for a male person or male pronouns for a female person. Pronouns are sex based. Being male or female isn't a costume that you put on and take off.

There is no such thing as 'being trans'. Everyone is either male or female, and it can't be changed. Whether you are male or female has no bearing on your interests, strengths, talents, shortcomings or preferences. They're all down to personality. I think that some people who identify as 'trans' have been given the message somewhere what they are the wrong sort of man / woman / boy / girl and that is really sad and concerning. Some other people who identify as 'trans' are doing it for kicks (autogynephilia)

Everyone is protected by human rights laws regarding safety from violence, harassment and discrimination and that's as it should be

Gosh there's a lot of shocked wondering going on today. Multiple threads of it.

To me personally it makes no bearing on my life to respect other people and use language that makes them comfortable.

My personal view is that it is the same way we wouldn’t use the n word anymore, as people of colour have described it as offensive so now we don’t say it. Again, we don’t call gay people the f word. Sure you can just say “no” to that idea and call them it anyway, but I don’t really see why and what the impact is to be polite and respectful

I'm closer to your second camp, although I don't pretend to be a feminist as I'm male. I do care about women's rights, and I feel If avoided "misgendering" by referring to males using female pronouns, that would be a massive betrayal of all the actual feminists who have risked their livelihoods and reputations battling this insane ideology. I dont hate anyone.

I've got trans family and am definitely not anti trans. But I know you can't change sex.

If someone is suffering from body dysmorphia, anorexia, addiction to plastic surgery, feeling like parts of your body aren't meant to be there such as legs, using steroids to make themselves impossibly muscular; those things could be considered to be fueled by mental illness.

Why is thinking you're the wrong sex and thinking you can change to the opposite one not seen in this way?

I feel men can be feminists just as much as women but I respect that you don’t wish to use that title

Pronouns are Rohypnol;

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I agree with you op.

I'm too bigoted for reddit and too much of a handmaiden for this forum 😂

"Anyone who is less committed than I am is a weak-spined handmaiden; anyone more committed than I am is an intransigent zealot. I and I alone define and hold the reasonable middle-ground. Bow down to my superiour righteousness and acknowlege me for what I am."

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

These views are held to be thoroughly and disreputably transphobic by people who consider themselves equally reasonable as you consider yourself.

I feel I have what are often considered gender critical views, but certainly not by the standards of this forum!

OP do you think rape victims are transphobic if they refuse to use the preferred pronouns of their rapist?

You are absolutely correct. Sex realist women really can be divided into Trump supporting fascist goats and self-sacrificing omnicause supporting sheep! And we've never had this conversation before, so, go ahead: make my day.

Or, maybe we all think different things, are willing to try on different ideas for size, and occasionally even change our minds?

I think the mental illness point is because gender dysphoria was classed as a mental illness for a while, and it’s treated on the NHS (implying it’s a problem), and trans people struggle with their mental health so much. It does seem to be a mental health problem which is not solved by surgery and endocrinologists, but needs some other sort of self acceptance to regain one’s happiness.
I don’t think wanting to ‘cure’ a person of their distress and help them get on with life is necessarily bad.

Believing that you are something that you are not and insisting others go along with that delusion is pretty much text book mental illness.

I wrote a long post but by the time I wanted to post, they'd made the points.

You can have the views you have. I'd caution being careful with the judgment and generous with the curiosity.

The last few days on FWR feels like I’ve woken up and it’s 10 years ago. Tiresome.

The other team will be along shortly to have any posts referring to identifying as trans as a ###### ####### removed. Looking forward to counting the deletions, and seeing which ones stay.

Ffs

Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!

Of course we all think differently and can change our minds, I was making a broad comment from the two viewpoints I see the most. There are nuances to both of them, but one certainly seems more extreme to me

Who called the tone police this time?

You might try reading the "Pronouns Are Rohypnol" essay.

Dysphoria, which has been suggested is the true sign of 'being transgender', is by definition a mental health issue. The clue to that is in the prefix 'Dys'.No matter what someone feels or imagines, they are not and never can be the opposite sex to that which they are.

Feminsim centres female people; the interests and perspectives of women and girls - as a distinct and foundational grouping in every society. It does not have to attach to any one specific political ideology ( such as Marxism or Queer Theory, for example)

There are differences between males and females and as a species we have had millennia of experience of the impacts and consequences of some of these differences. These differences are not only evident in biological function, but also in our physcality more generally, and to some degree behavioural ( men are more prone to parapilias and fetishes than females, for example; most violent crimes are committed ny male people; male sexual drive is different to the female sexual drive, and so on).

It is important that women and girls are accorded respect and given consideration for some of these differences, and that where there might be any disadvantage we have evolved a situation to mitigate some of those disadvantages by the provision of female only categories , spaces and services - that permit female dignity, worth, value, excellence and culture to flourish.

Truth is important, and we should never be compelled to speak untruths about the reality of things we instinctively recognise. Using pronouns is the thin end of a wedge...one which has been designed to infringe upon female boundaries and integrity. Men are not women. Males are not female. Actually, I suggest that it is actually quite hateful towards women to perpetrate the lie that some men are also women.

So you’d be happy to lie and go along with something you fundamentally disagreed with? I’m not.

And extreme = bad? Because it doesn't.

The older I get, the more I move from liberal feminism to radical feminism. We tried appeasement, and being pleasant and nice and trying to bring men with us. We got Andrew Tate and incels. So fuck them. Radical all the way. At least we're not colluding in our own oppression.