Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

Nope. No man can be a woman. Sorry mate. A woman is an adult human female.

And that would be your belief.

so when you say woman, you’re including males in that word? So it means “adult human females and some men who are sexist enough to believe they are women”? Nah, we’ll just stick with woman as an adult human female and the others can make their own word up. Trans identified male might work.

Nooooo that’s a fact. Sorry to shatter your delusion, but no man can be a woman. #sadtimes. #poorlambs.

I am including males who are identified as women by individuals and communities within the culture we live. Women.

Identity does not a woman make. Biology does.

So none then? So without using sexist, outdated stereotypes, how would a male know he “felt like a woman”? Unless he is sexist and misogynistic enough to believe all women feel and think the same way, how would he know? What frame of reference is he using?

It’s not a belief, it’s fact. That is why a cheek swab can differentiate between XY and XX I.e. men and women. You can’t change sex.

I didn't say identify, I said identified. People who are identified as women, regardless of their identity.

I don't feel like a woman. I have been grouped and included/excluded as a woman for my entire adulthood. My life's options have been restricted and/or celebrated because I was identified as a woman. My reference is friends and family and sharing the experience of how women are treated by the world we all live in. Our culture is sexist and misogynistic.

Agreed, no one changes sex. I.e. male and female.

Everyone who uses she / her for males with long hair & dresses & who pushes for their inclusion in women’s spaces because they “look like women” instead of taking the truly progressive view that how someone presents makes no difference to their sex, & that transwomen have as much right to male spaces as any other men.

In the 1980s, nobody would have assumed that men with long hair & makeup were women or that women with crew cuts & trouser suits were men. We’ve gone backwards there.

I don't understand, given all of the above, how such a term can be seen as offensive. I am consigning you to a subset of your gender rather than your sex.

The fact that you've just "given all of the above" is the offense. To accept the usage requires accepting a whole heap of misogyny.

Specifically:

1. the "taking it for granted that society associates" these men with women. We don't, and society clearly doesn't because they don't get treated like women at all. They're treated like Very Special Men You Can Never Say No To. For "trans ally" men, they often find it hard to conceal their "bros before hos" glee about supporting men doing "womaning" properly, and the opportunity of unleashing a whole heap of invective on women who don't comply.
2. Claiming that these men are women. "By definition", no less!
3. Saying we have "trans women" now meaning "men who say they're women" (with a new definition of women) rather than "women who say they're men".
4. "Your gender". Did you just assign us a gender? How are you determining women's gender is the same as a trans-identifying man's? Are you only paying attention to what's in the mans' head here?

If your usage didn't do all that - if by "cisgender women" you meant "women who don't claim they're men", and "transgender women" you meant "women who do claim they're men". there would be (at least to me) much offense involved. It would just be in-group language separating sex focussed around the "trans" group. But as it stands, it's extremely offensive due to the redefinition of "woman" that goes along with it.

'Female' and 'woman' are sex and gender respectively, right?

And going back to this - clearly, no. They're an adjective and a noun. It's clearly not workable to consistently use only an adjective for one meaning, and use only a noun for another, as you can see in general usage. They end up being flipped between as if they're thesaurus alternatives, without meaning distinction.

I've only ever seen "transgender female" used in the press as a synonym for "transwoman". We've long used "trans-identified female" here, in an attempt to be clear, but in the world that says "trans women are women", "female" is routinely used for males.

You're trying to claim a compromise position that's already been demonstrated to be unworkable - neither "female" nor "woman" are being reserved for actual women.

It seems onepost is doing his usual merail and not sticking to his username.

Look onemillionposts, we know you like to think you're a woman. There's no point in continuing to beat us over the head with your delusions. We're never going to agree with you on that.

Women are female. Men are male. Get over it.

Everyone groups other people into 'man' or 'woman' by the sex perceived, regardless of whether the subject being grouped is chromosomally or genetically or gametically male or female or identifies as a particular gender. Trans inclusion (or as you say progressive views) may widen someone's perception window, but this grouping has nothing to do with how anyone identifies, unless that level of feedback or influence is explicitly included into the evaluation.

I transitioned as a teen in the 80s. I agree. Men were men and women were women. Clothing was just clothing. Sadly I don't personally know any goths who raised a new generation of goths, but I think there had to be some gothlings and perhaps a third generation of gothlets around somewhere.

that, of course, is your belief.

But how did they know you were a woman? Did they have any frame of reference to know or did they do eenie meenie miney mo?

Yes it is. Especially those men using sexist and misogynistic stereotypes to tell women that men can now become women. I think there’s nothing more sexist and misogynistic than a man telling a woman what a woman is don’t you? And yes males with a trans identity are men.

Oh, I don't know? I am 5'4 and have been between size 6 and 8 for my entire life. I work out 6 days a week so I maintain my bone density and some level of fitness because I like my body and want to keep it a number of more years.

It could be my breasts? My hips? Where fat sits on my body? My voice? My friend groups? My community? It's certainly not the jeans and uni hoodies I've worn for most of my life.

I think there are more far harmful examples of misogyny out there than whatever you are trying to frame from this obsession over protecting the planet from the trans scourge.

ewwwww. I said without using sexist misogynistic stereotypes. So you're a woman cos you’re short and slim? Ok buddy. So a six foot female is not a woman? A female who is not slim is not a woman? Deep voiced women are men? You’ll be saying it’s cos you cry at sad films next 🙄🙄🙄🙄

What is more misogynistic than men telling women how they must define themselves? I mean men mansplaining to women what a woman is using sexist stereotypes. How is that not misogynistic? And threatening women with violence, rape and death if they disagree. Explain how that is not misogynistic.

I absolutely haven't said this or inferred this.

I am answering a question asked about me, personally, by you.

I have always had friends of all shapes and sizes. You are the person who is limiting their inclusion as women.

No, I asked you how a male would know he is a woman and you came back with, it’s because you’re short and slim. So try again. How, without using sexist stereotypes, does a male know he “feels like a woman”?

If you wish to sit here and focus on the shittiest things misogyny does to women, I would suggest the first example that comes to mind is the murder of women because they are women. I'm not going to further discuss violence, rape and murder with you.