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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Finnish study on transition and psychiatric outcomes in sex and gender shows increased psychiatric morbidity

221 replies

anyolddinosaur · 07/04/2026 10:11

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.70533 Finnish study shows transition did not help psychiatric morbidity. It got worse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
noblegiraffe · 10/04/2026 10:42

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 10:41

Ok, I just cannot be arsed with this. You are clearly possessed of a much superior intellect to me - and indeed to the multiple medical professionals who spoke up against the Pathways trial.

If they said there wasn’t a control group they were either lying or hadn’t actually read all the documents relating to the trial.

Serasar · 10/04/2026 11:04

Hedgehogforshort · 09/04/2026 16:32

Very much enjoying this informative thread as an aid to understanding. I am also enjoying the methodology being employed to deal with the person whose name i will not mention.

I agree with you. So many threads are so informative to a lurker like me and they get ruined by not very intelligent posts.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 11:17

noblegiraffe · 10/04/2026 10:42

If they said there wasn’t a control group they were either lying or hadn’t actually read all the documents relating to the trial.

My apologies - I did interpret their objection somewhat incorrectly. The professionals’ specific issue with the study wrt a control group was the following:

  • There is no randomised control group to allow a reliable comparison. The planned comparison with a subgroup from PATHWAYS Horizon Intensive will not provide a reliable control, as this group will be too different from the group in Trial.

https://can-sg.org/2025/12/18/open-letter-to-wes-streeting-on-the-pathways-puberty-blockers-trial/

My question to you, though, is this. Why, given that the Finnish study has shown such strong evidence despite the fact that it was retrospective of physical and psychological harm to children from this medical pathway, do you think it is ethical to carry out another study that will be almost guaranteed to physically and psychologically harm a significant portion of the participants? Like, I am with you on the purity of the data - in a perfect world that’s what we would have had from the Tavi. But we didn’t, and we now know more about how dangerous this treatment is. So how can you justify putting children through this study just to supposedly get a beautiful, pure set of results?

legs and feet of two teens in denim jeans wearing converse all star high top sneakers

Open Letter from clinicians to Wes Streeting on the PATHWAYS Puberty Blocker Trial

We’re collecting signatures from clinicians for this open letter. Please add your name here: Sign the letter to Wes Streeting Mr Wes StreetingSecretary of State for Health and Social Care Cop…

https://can-sg.org/2025/12/18/open-letter-to-wes-streeting-on-the-pathways-puberty-blockers-trial/

Grassstorm · 10/04/2026 11:26

I stand corrected regard the control group- although I would have sworn that in one of the iterations of the protocol there was an issue regarding not being seen as frequently/not receiving the same psychological support/not being matched.
However, I still think the linkage trial could have been be informative and should have happened before a puberty blocker trial, as, even with not so great quality data, it could have suggest a better design of the puberty blocker trial regarding length of follow up or consent about fertility just to name two things.
I still think that, given the evidence of suspected side effects (especially when followed by hormones) and the results of Olson-Kennedy trial, the window for an ethical trial has closed.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 11:32

Grassstorm · 10/04/2026 11:26

I stand corrected regard the control group- although I would have sworn that in one of the iterations of the protocol there was an issue regarding not being seen as frequently/not receiving the same psychological support/not being matched.
However, I still think the linkage trial could have been be informative and should have happened before a puberty blocker trial, as, even with not so great quality data, it could have suggest a better design of the puberty blocker trial regarding length of follow up or consent about fertility just to name two things.
I still think that, given the evidence of suspected side effects (especially when followed by hormones) and the results of Olson-Kennedy trial, the window for an ethical trial has closed.

I could have sworn that too. I think from the responses from medical professionals that I’ve seen (though this is an educated guess at this point) that the information about the Pathways trial was released (or found) first, and many early responses were to this. Then the Pathways Horizontal Intensive was released (found) and the existence of a non-randomised, pseudo control group was made clear.

None of that justifies the equivalent of running a study on why eating crushed glass might help gender confused kids.

Hedgehogforshort · 10/04/2026 11:39

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 11:17

My apologies - I did interpret their objection somewhat incorrectly. The professionals’ specific issue with the study wrt a control group was the following:

  • There is no randomised control group to allow a reliable comparison. The planned comparison with a subgroup from PATHWAYS Horizon Intensive will not provide a reliable control, as this group will be too different from the group in Trial.

https://can-sg.org/2025/12/18/open-letter-to-wes-streeting-on-the-pathways-puberty-blockers-trial/

My question to you, though, is this. Why, given that the Finnish study has shown such strong evidence despite the fact that it was retrospective of physical and psychological harm to children from this medical pathway, do you think it is ethical to carry out another study that will be almost guaranteed to physically and psychologically harm a significant portion of the participants? Like, I am with you on the purity of the data - in a perfect world that’s what we would have had from the Tavi. But we didn’t, and we now know more about how dangerous this treatment is. So how can you justify putting children through this study just to supposedly get a beautiful, pure set of results?

An impressive volume and skill base in the signatories to this letter.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 11:45

Hedgehogforshort · 10/04/2026 11:39

An impressive volume and skill base in the signatories to this letter.

No kidding. Not really dismissible as a tiny bunch of crackpots, or armchair medical “professionals” or even “concerned parents.”

Hedgehogforshort · 10/04/2026 11:53

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 11:45

No kidding. Not really dismissible as a tiny bunch of crackpots, or armchair medical “professionals” or even “concerned parents.”

or people who have made up qualifications, or a degree in gender studies or Russian philosophy and the like.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/04/2026 14:12

LilyYeCarveSuns · 10/04/2026 10:30

This is shocking.
Why do they want to compromise the study?

I would think that it is probably because they have reason to think that if the study's results are allowed to reflect reality accurately, those results will not be to their liking, for whatever reason.

BusyAzureTraybake · 10/04/2026 14:17

BusyAzureTraybake · 10/04/2026 10:40

Read the exclusion criteria. If they are clinically eligible for puberty blockers and wish to receive them, they are not eligible. Not a control group.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-protocol.pdf

If I may expand on my point. Those of you saying there is a control group are correct, in as much as there is a group being called a 'control group' and it is matched with Pathways trial participants for markers such as age, sex, presence of ND etc.
However, it is also correct to say that it is not really a control group because the group excludes any child who is clinically eligible for blockers and wishes to receive them.
So the Pathways Trial group are children who want blockers and the 'control group' excludes children who want blockers. So you are comparing apples with pears.
I think this may be where some of the control group confusion stems from.

spannasaurus · 10/04/2026 14:18

Wasn't there a US study that they refused to release on the grounds that it would be weaponised by TERFs (because the outcomes were so bad)

BusyAzureTraybake · 10/04/2026 14:23

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/04/2026 14:12

I would think that it is probably because they have reason to think that if the study's results are allowed to reflect reality accurately, those results will not be to their liking, for whatever reason.

Edited

Agree.
The stated excuse reason is that everyone who will be looking at the data is a horrible, anti-trans bigot.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 14:25

spannasaurus · 10/04/2026 14:18

Wasn't there a US study that they refused to release on the grounds that it would be weaponised by TERFs (because the outcomes were so bad)

Yes - John’s Hopkins-based study commissioned by Olson-Kennedy - of the “if they [girls who have undergone mastectomies under the guise of gender affirming care] want breasts later in life they can go and get them.”

Olson-Kennedy sat on the results because “they could be weaponised against the trans community”.

Grassstorm · 10/04/2026 15:32

After sitting on the results, O-K published a pre-print of the results.
Mental and Emotional Health of Youth after 24 months of Gender-Affirming Medical Care Initiated with Pubertal Suppression | medRxiv

From the abstract:
Participants initiating medical interventions for gender dysphoria with GnRHas have self- and parent-reported psychological and emotional health comparable with the population of adolescents at large, which remains relatively stable over 24 months. Given that the mental health of youth with gender dysphoria who are older is often poor, it is likely that puberty blockers prevent the deterioration of mental health.

Basically: mental health of children on puberty blockers did not improve according to the metrics included in the pre-print.

However, several other metrics which were included in the clinical trial protocol are still unpublished.
(Historically, it was observed in many clinical trials across all medical fields there was a cherry-picking of the best results, leaving out the negative, so recently there was a push to register the trials in advance, declaring all the tests that were going to be conducted, so that negative/inconclusive results are more difficult to be conveniently omitted from the final publication).
Here there is a good explanation about trial pre-registration:
Should You Pre-Register Your Research Study? A Quick Guide - Enago Academy
So this study can be evaluated better once it is fully published.
Edited for clarity.

Should You Pre-Register Your Research Study? A Quick Guide - Enago Academy

The replication crisis and publication bias in publishing are serious issues that need to be addressed. As a response to these issues, the practice of pre-registration of research studies is growing in popularity among researchers. Here we discuss the...

https://www.enago.com/academy/pre-registration-of-your-research/

anyolddinosaur · 11/04/2026 17:23

@noblegiraffe You seem to believe any data held by the NHS is rubbish - except that that will be collected in the puberty blocker trial. If the NHS cant accurately record data normally it wont be doing so in this trial either. There is less chance of good record keeping in a trial that involves activists. There is plenty of guidance on what data should be recorded when you see a patient and often standardised forms to complete and codes to use. The Tavistock didnt do that because anyone who tried to say they should was criticised. There were a number of whistleblowers and a lot of people who had ethical concerns moved on. You may believe the entirety of the NHS is an unethical mess but I dont. In fact the Tavistock demonstrated that in it's turnover of staff.

The document you linked to states "Researchers will ask some of the young people taking part in PATHWAYS HORIZON if they want to take part in PATHWAYS HORIZON INTENSIVE." That fails the definition of a control group. It is a comparison group but when people are allowed to chose treatment it is a self selected group and therefore useless.

Edit to add - I remember some children were going to be paid for being included, can anyone remind me where I find the details for payments?

OP posts:
BusyAzureTraybake · 11/04/2026 19:36

@anyolddinosaur Edit to add - I remember some children were going to be paid for being included, can anyone remind me where I find the details for payments?

Is this it? Scroll down to page 63:
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-protocol.pdf

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/assets/pathways/trial/pathways-trial-protocol.pdf

anyolddinosaur · 11/04/2026 19:55

Thank you, @BusyAzureTraybake that was it. The House of commons debate on the petition about the trial was here https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2026-03-23/debates/D6758513-7EB3-45DF-B0D9-E3C3BE3A3A97/PubertyBlockersClinicalTrial

Several speakers said (my summary) we'd be experimenting on children when we know puberty blockers do harm and we dont actually have evidence they do any good. Points raised include how many will desist if allowed to go through puberty and how that doesnt happen with puberty blockers. So you harm more children than will benefit, if any do benefit. There would be one benefit to this study - brain scans to see how childrens brains were affected - but the proposed time scale is too short to produce anything that is likely to be useful and I dont know if there is enough research to know what changes are significant.

The study seemed to be designed around how young people feel rather than what harm they are doing to themselves. With the Finnish study suggesting mental health will deteriorate on top of the known physical risks how could any ethical doctor now justify prescribing puberty blockers?

OP posts:
EricTheHalfASleeve · 11/04/2026 20:17

noblegiraffe · 10/04/2026 09:35

It absolutely 100% swear on my life had a control group.

Nope - the puberty blocker trial has a comparator group of children in the observational study. Which has different inclusion criteria, assessments and care. So that's bobbins as a comparative group.

The trial itself proposes 2 groups - 1 starts blockers straight away, 1 waits 2 years. Problem is that with a wide age range the 2 groups may end up being indistinguishable- say a 14 year with a 4 year history of gender dysphoria is recruited and goes into the 'straight to treatment' group aged 14, then a 12 year old with a 2 year history is recruited to the 'wait 2 years' group - and starts blockers aged 14 with a 4 year history of gender dysphoria. What are you hoping to learn from comparing them? It's a rubbish protocol and should never have been approved. Junk science & grossly unethical.

noblegiraffe · 12/04/2026 06:54

You're not going to be able to convince me that all the people saying 'there is no control group' actually knew about the group of gender distressed young people with matched characteristics to those in the puberty blocker trial but who were not taking puberty blockers, who were undergoing the same assessments in order to be able to clarify which effects were from taking puberty blockers and which were not, and what they really meant was 'I don't think the matched group of kids who aren't taking puberty blockers who will be compared to those who are taking puberty blockers is good enough to tease out the effects of the puberty blockers'.

If you want to say that the group with matched characteristics not taking the medicine being studied isn't actually any good as a control group, then perhaps you'll be making the same criticism of the control group in the Finnish study and disregarding its conclusions?

noblegiraffe · 12/04/2026 07:10

@anyolddinosaur You seem to believe any data held by the NHS is rubbish - except that that will be collected in the puberty blocker trial. If the NHS cant accurately record data normally it wont be doing so in this trial either.

I don't think you understand how clinical trials are run compared to day-to-day record keeping. Cleaning and validating clinical data from trials, which is taken at specific times and for a specific purpose is a massive job and a huge industry. If, in a clinical trial, a doctor isn't recording data that they are meant to be recording then that will be flagged and followed-up.

We know that the Tavistock was utterly shite at record-keeping. That people are now pretending that the same shit data is a valid source for wide-ranging statistical analysis is mind-boggling. Even the Finnish study, which has a complete dataset is extremely restricted in what it looked at in order to be able to draw valid conclusions.

noblegiraffe · 12/04/2026 07:49

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2026 11:17

My apologies - I did interpret their objection somewhat incorrectly. The professionals’ specific issue with the study wrt a control group was the following:

  • There is no randomised control group to allow a reliable comparison. The planned comparison with a subgroup from PATHWAYS Horizon Intensive will not provide a reliable control, as this group will be too different from the group in Trial.

https://can-sg.org/2025/12/18/open-letter-to-wes-streeting-on-the-pathways-puberty-blockers-trial/

My question to you, though, is this. Why, given that the Finnish study has shown such strong evidence despite the fact that it was retrospective of physical and psychological harm to children from this medical pathway, do you think it is ethical to carry out another study that will be almost guaranteed to physically and psychologically harm a significant portion of the participants? Like, I am with you on the purity of the data - in a perfect world that’s what we would have had from the Tavi. But we didn’t, and we now know more about how dangerous this treatment is. So how can you justify putting children through this study just to supposedly get a beautiful, pure set of results?

My comment was about the purity of the data, not any ethical considerations, in response to a comment about excellent studies that the NHS was capable of conducting.

With the results of the Finnish study just being published, I agree that there is far less need for the puberty blocker trial to demonstrate their lack of efficacy.

However, even with the Finnish study there are still unanswered questions, about the very specific subgroup Cass referred to for whom puberty blockers were potentially beneficial. The new draft KCSIE safeguarding guidance for schools refers to some young children 'living in stealth' approaching puberty in a fearful and anxious state, so this group is being taken seriously in safeguarding documents outside of the Cass review. I know nothing about this group of children being referred to, and I'm sure that many on here will have opinions about them, but this Finnish study doesn't help them. They're going to still end up taking puberty blockers, so if we're talking about need for a trial (outside of ethical considerations), then it would be good to have solid data to protect future cohorts of that group too.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 12/04/2026 09:45

noblegiraffe · 12/04/2026 07:49

My comment was about the purity of the data, not any ethical considerations, in response to a comment about excellent studies that the NHS was capable of conducting.

With the results of the Finnish study just being published, I agree that there is far less need for the puberty blocker trial to demonstrate their lack of efficacy.

However, even with the Finnish study there are still unanswered questions, about the very specific subgroup Cass referred to for whom puberty blockers were potentially beneficial. The new draft KCSIE safeguarding guidance for schools refers to some young children 'living in stealth' approaching puberty in a fearful and anxious state, so this group is being taken seriously in safeguarding documents outside of the Cass review. I know nothing about this group of children being referred to, and I'm sure that many on here will have opinions about them, but this Finnish study doesn't help them. They're going to still end up taking puberty blockers, so if we're talking about need for a trial (outside of ethical considerations), then it would be good to have solid data to protect future cohorts of that group too.

…the very specific subgroup Cass referred to for whom puberty blockers were potentially beneficial.

Here is the problem - there is no actual evidence that such a group exists, nor is there any evidence that such a group, if it existed, would ever be identifiable except in retrospect. The article by Stella O’Malley that I linked to above covers this explicitly:

I call it the Cass Paradox. After four years reviewing the evidence for the medicalisation of children’s identities, Dr Hilary Cass and her team found no reliable evidence of benefit for interventions that carry risks of infertility, sexual impairment, and significant physical harm. These are consequences children are inherently too immature to fully understand. Yet Dr Cass remains open to the idea that some children may benefit, and this openness has contributed to confusion about the wider issue. The Cass Paradox highlights a review that finds no reliable evidence of benefit yet still refuses to rule out the intervention.

This inability to close the door is striking. Across clinicians and researchers who describe themselves as “gender critical” but are better named “gender critical lite”, there remains a refusal to fully say no to medical transition. They tend to subscribe to an unevidenced theory - I have a name for this too - the “tiny numbers theory”; the belief that a vanishingly small group might benefit, despite the absence of evidence.

As a basis for healthcare, this is farcical. Treatments are not justified by the possibility that someone, somewhere, might benefit. The burden of proof rests with those making the claim, yet here it is inverted and sustained through self-report and speculation. The gender critical lite crowd cannot seem to move on from this thinking, insisting on focusing narrowly on the risks of paediatric medical transition while avoiding the larger and more important question of medical transition itself.

Most people, even those with little knowledge of this issue, recognise that paediatric medical transition is a reckless and inappropriate intervention. Dr Cass is internally inconsistent in this respect, and one cannot help but think she has been politically outmanoeuvred, as seen with the shenanigans over the puberty blocker trial. It came as no surprise when the data linkage study shifted from being deemed impossible to carry out to suddenly being approved; there has clearly been significant institutional pressure in this space.

In the meantime, self-report is relied upon to keep the door ajar for medical transition for a “tiny number” of people. Even though this is not a basis for standard healthcare; self-report is inherently unreliable and does not justify medical intervention.

BusyAzureTraybake · 12/04/2026 09:58

@noblegiraffe If you want to say that the group with matched characteristics not taking the medicine being studied isn't actually any good as a control group, then perhaps you'll be making the same criticism of the control group in the Finnish study and disregarding its conclusions?

For me, the difference is that the Finnish study is making the best of the data it has access to, in a retrospective study. The authors are aware of its limitations, they know the difference between causation and correlation, but are still able to make a strong case that something is very wrong with the gac model.

The Pathways trial is a proposal. It hasn't been done yet and, as such, a rigorous assessment of its protocols by experts and concerned citizens is entirely justified. It is valid to point out, in advance, that the control group(s) have flaws. In fact, a perfect control group is not possible in this situation.

With the results of the Finnish study just being published, I agree that there is far less need for the puberty blocker trial to demonstrate their lack of efficacy.

I never felt that there was any need for a pb trial because I do not subscribe to the 'tiny number' theory as outlined in the post above. However, I agree that those who did want a trial have even less of an argument after the Finnish study.

noblegiraffe · 12/04/2026 10:06

Here is the problem - there is no actual evidence that such a group exists

A group certainly exists, of children who have been ‘socially transitioned’ from a very young age, potentially where peers may be unaware. The reason that this group exists is up for grabs, but they are certainly distinct from the confused anxious autistic teens who grab onto a trans identity later in childhood.

ArabellaScott · 12/04/2026 10:17

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 12/04/2026 09:45

…the very specific subgroup Cass referred to for whom puberty blockers were potentially beneficial.

Here is the problem - there is no actual evidence that such a group exists, nor is there any evidence that such a group, if it existed, would ever be identifiable except in retrospect. The article by Stella O’Malley that I linked to above covers this explicitly:

I call it the Cass Paradox. After four years reviewing the evidence for the medicalisation of children’s identities, Dr Hilary Cass and her team found no reliable evidence of benefit for interventions that carry risks of infertility, sexual impairment, and significant physical harm. These are consequences children are inherently too immature to fully understand. Yet Dr Cass remains open to the idea that some children may benefit, and this openness has contributed to confusion about the wider issue. The Cass Paradox highlights a review that finds no reliable evidence of benefit yet still refuses to rule out the intervention.

This inability to close the door is striking. Across clinicians and researchers who describe themselves as “gender critical” but are better named “gender critical lite”, there remains a refusal to fully say no to medical transition. They tend to subscribe to an unevidenced theory - I have a name for this too - the “tiny numbers theory”; the belief that a vanishingly small group might benefit, despite the absence of evidence.

As a basis for healthcare, this is farcical. Treatments are not justified by the possibility that someone, somewhere, might benefit. The burden of proof rests with those making the claim, yet here it is inverted and sustained through self-report and speculation. The gender critical lite crowd cannot seem to move on from this thinking, insisting on focusing narrowly on the risks of paediatric medical transition while avoiding the larger and more important question of medical transition itself.

Most people, even those with little knowledge of this issue, recognise that paediatric medical transition is a reckless and inappropriate intervention. Dr Cass is internally inconsistent in this respect, and one cannot help but think she has been politically outmanoeuvred, as seen with the shenanigans over the puberty blocker trial. It came as no surprise when the data linkage study shifted from being deemed impossible to carry out to suddenly being approved; there has clearly been significant institutional pressure in this space.

In the meantime, self-report is relied upon to keep the door ajar for medical transition for a “tiny number” of people. Even though this is not a basis for standard healthcare; self-report is inherently unreliable and does not justify medical intervention.

Edited

Thank you. I imagine one could make exactly the same argument for this tiny hypothetical group for 1. BIDD and 2. Eunuchs.

And that there may well be overlap between all three groups.