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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Finnish study on transition and psychiatric outcomes in sex and gender shows increased psychiatric morbidity

221 replies

anyolddinosaur · 07/04/2026 10:11

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.70533 Finnish study shows transition did not help psychiatric morbidity. It got worse.

OP posts:
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15
GallantKumquat · 08/04/2026 19:46

theilltemperedamateur · 08/04/2026 18:52

I'd be happier with the data if I was certain that every subject was assessed, and treatment well under way, within two years of the index date. Maybe they were - but the report doesn't say so.

This has been mentioned variously, but buried in other arguments - the gold standard would have been a longitudinal, well designed randomised double-blind placebo-controlled trial over several decades. That should have been embarked upon long before gender medicine became a formal practice, but for obvious ideological reasons it was not. So, in the absence of well designed trials, we are left to construct studies using existing clinical data. This is a genuine limitation, but that doesn't mean the results are invalid. It does mean that confounding factors, including causation vs correlation are harder control for and eliminate.

What's important to keep in mind is that the burden of proof actually lies with the treatment, i.e. that evidence for improvement outweighs the statistical noise and methodological uncertainty of no treatment (including the placebo effect) and the risk of harms. Instead what has been demonstrated is that the treatment, far from being beneficial, or having no effect, caused harm. And the numbers are so disproportionate they drowns out statistical and methodological uncertainty. That's astonishing and in fact shows gender medicine is a uniquely harmful pseudo-science and not a science based treatment at all.

It's quite likely the treatment, in fact, is close to 100% harmful (to say nothing about whether it's beneficial) but the statistics that are available are not powerful enough to show that, e.g. there is considerable mental harm that can be done that doesn't rise to the level of requiring psychiatric care and considerable physical harm (including shortened life and serious, debilitating illness) that wouldn't be captured at all.

RedToothBrush · 08/04/2026 19:48

Why are posters trying to control others by saying it's 'morally wrong' to observe and recognise sex and reality?

Coercive emotional blackmail much?

Like no. The answer is no.

This is abusive shite.

rabbitwoman · 08/04/2026 20:52

AidaP · 07/04/2026 14:33

It's at best a middling journal and there are no peer review markings on the paper.

Size of the claim must match size and quality of the proof, and this is second study they performed with this finding, and another with debatable science and published in as debatable place.

If there is some actual science pointing on transgender people problems, I'd love it. I read it all. But mostly it's just people building up backwards from conclusions and skipping even basics like peer review, notably which is what Cass review did.

Seriously, cass review is NOT peer reviewed. It couldn't even cross that threshold. Let that sink in.

And the peer reviewing of it after publication is scathing.

The cass review is referenced in the latest version of the KCSIE -keeping children safe in education- that all teachers have to read.

It is very well respected as a way forward, and teachers are expected to comply to its recommendations in the classroom.

Let that sink in - i think i will take that as an assertion of its value over yours.

MassiveWordSalad · 08/04/2026 22:53

I hope this is just the beginning and the opening of the floodgates. It’s unspeakably grotesque that the scientific establishment has wilfully looked away from the use and abuse of children in order to prop up an ideology that benefits a certain cohort of adults. Have no mainstream media outfits picked on this study? I’ve had a quick look but can’t see anything.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 08/04/2026 23:07

Kiminki · 07/04/2026 19:14

The Equality Act stops you suffering detriment because of your PC - not gaining access to something that harms you does not cause you to suffer detriment.

Incidentally re Speech and Language Therapy, extreme autism advocates criticise anything they feel undermine your autistic identify - ABA therapy being the main target but some also extend this to speech and language therapy.

That's because ABA is abusive, like dog training with a shock collar is. Skinner's first experiments were to give electric shocks to a little girl.

I struggle to see how anyone could have a problem with SaLT.

DameMaud · 09/04/2026 07:46

GallantKumquat · 08/04/2026 19:46

This has been mentioned variously, but buried in other arguments - the gold standard would have been a longitudinal, well designed randomised double-blind placebo-controlled trial over several decades. That should have been embarked upon long before gender medicine became a formal practice, but for obvious ideological reasons it was not. So, in the absence of well designed trials, we are left to construct studies using existing clinical data. This is a genuine limitation, but that doesn't mean the results are invalid. It does mean that confounding factors, including causation vs correlation are harder control for and eliminate.

What's important to keep in mind is that the burden of proof actually lies with the treatment, i.e. that evidence for improvement outweighs the statistical noise and methodological uncertainty of no treatment (including the placebo effect) and the risk of harms. Instead what has been demonstrated is that the treatment, far from being beneficial, or having no effect, caused harm. And the numbers are so disproportionate they drowns out statistical and methodological uncertainty. That's astonishing and in fact shows gender medicine is a uniquely harmful pseudo-science and not a science based treatment at all.

It's quite likely the treatment, in fact, is close to 100% harmful (to say nothing about whether it's beneficial) but the statistics that are available are not powerful enough to show that, e.g. there is considerable mental harm that can be done that doesn't rise to the level of requiring psychiatric care and considerable physical harm (including shortened life and serious, debilitating illness) that wouldn't be captured at all.

Edited

This is such a clarifying comment. Thank you!

Kiminki · 09/04/2026 09:48

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 08/04/2026 23:07

That's because ABA is abusive, like dog training with a shock collar is. Skinner's first experiments were to give electric shocks to a little girl.

I struggle to see how anyone could have a problem with SaLT.

I am not arguing over ABA. I am saying that they start with something ABA then use the logic for that (that it ‘trains away autism’) to extend to other things including speech and language therapy, social stories, backward chaining, positive behaviour support, social skills support.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 09/04/2026 10:00

Kiminki · 09/04/2026 09:48

I am not arguing over ABA. I am saying that they start with something ABA then use the logic for that (that it ‘trains away autism’) to extend to other things including speech and language therapy, social stories, backward chaining, positive behaviour support, social skills support.

Anyone who does that has misunderstood why ABA is bad and doesn't understand that SaLT is a good thing.

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 13:34

Is this Finnish study similar to the planned UK data linkage study?

noblegiraffe · 09/04/2026 15:34

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 13:34

Is this Finnish study similar to the planned UK data linkage study?

No, it's way, way better.

Grassstorm · 09/04/2026 15:47

The Finnish study looks much better because it looks as if the data are more centralized than in the UK so there is a more complete record of the interventions.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 09/04/2026 15:47

noblegiraffe · 09/04/2026 15:34

No, it's way, way better.

Damn, I was afraid of that, there's no point in us spending anytime doing a substandard study, but now the Fins have released their study perhaps the study in the UK could be reframed so it could be as good. 🤔

noblegiraffe · 09/04/2026 15:50

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 09/04/2026 15:47

Damn, I was afraid of that, there's no point in us spending anytime doing a substandard study, but now the Fins have released their study perhaps the study in the UK could be reframed so it could be as good. 🤔

There's no fixing the UK study. The data is massively incomplete which will render any statistical analysis instantly suspect.

The Finnish study was 100% of the population with 100% follow-up data.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 09/04/2026 16:03

Then do we even need to under take a study, if there's one that's been completed that is good enough to set the standard for useful studies, and we're in no position t come close to it, it seems like a complete waste of time, resources and money. Money that could be better spent on developing an effective therapy for those in need of it or something else of value.

Natsku · 09/04/2026 16:26

Grassstorm · 09/04/2026 15:47

The Finnish study looks much better because it looks as if the data are more centralized than in the UK so there is a more complete record of the interventions.

Yup data is very centralised here and everything is linked by our personal identification codes, and its not possible to opt out, so any study based on population data is very good here.

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 16:31

There is a thread on reddit telling people how to opt their data out of the NHS study

Grassstorm · 09/04/2026 16:31

It might still be useful if it children who received puberty blockers and who didn't, you really need to know the NHS from within to judge the possible quality of the data...

Hedgehogforshort · 09/04/2026 16:32

Very much enjoying this informative thread as an aid to understanding. I am also enjoying the methodology being employed to deal with the person whose name i will not mention.

borntobequiet · 09/04/2026 16:43

I think it would be useful to have a clear idea of just how poor data collection and follow up of patients was under the previous U.K. gender regime.

noblegiraffe · 09/04/2026 16:44

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 09/04/2026 16:03

Then do we even need to under take a study, if there's one that's been completed that is good enough to set the standard for useful studies, and we're in no position t come close to it, it seems like a complete waste of time, resources and money. Money that could be better spent on developing an effective therapy for those in need of it or something else of value.

I think there was a lot of pressure being applied from people who wanted the data to be made public because they suspect the Tavistock are covering up stuff, over any desire to produce anything statistically valid.

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 17:33

Does anyone know if there any other countries with the same kind of monitoring as Finland who could do a similar study?

BusyAzureTraybake · 09/04/2026 17:56

borntobequiet · 09/04/2026 16:43

I think it would be useful to have a clear idea of just how poor data collection and follow up of patients was under the previous U.K. gender regime.

It really upsets me. The NHS was perfectly positioned, as a national health service with a huge database, to produce high quality research in this field. We could have been 'world-leading' in exposing the failure of gender-affirming care years ago. Many children and young adults would have been spared medical interventions and we would have been well on the way to identifying alternative, productive clinical pathways. Instead of which we have the current shitshow, because cowards in positions of power wouldn't say no to activists, even after the harms became obvious.

Hoardasurass · 09/04/2026 18:08

Kiminki · 09/04/2026 09:48

I am not arguing over ABA. I am saying that they start with something ABA then use the logic for that (that it ‘trains away autism’) to extend to other things including speech and language therapy, social stories, backward chaining, positive behaviour support, social skills support.

Do you have any idea what real ABA involves?
Because its not training away the autism its full blown torture. You are beaten every single time you stim or show any sign of asd, you are forced into situations that trigger meltdowns and asd overload so they can beat you for your reaction until you completely shutdown.
Please don't minimise it as training or claim that its training the autism away as the life long harms are way beyond your comprehension

Kiminki · 09/04/2026 18:11

Hoardasurass · 09/04/2026 18:08

Do you have any idea what real ABA involves?
Because its not training away the autism its full blown torture. You are beaten every single time you stim or show any sign of asd, you are forced into situations that trigger meltdowns and asd overload so they can beat you for your reaction until you completely shutdown.
Please don't minimise it as training or claim that its training the autism away as the life long harms are way beyond your comprehension

I am not derailing this thread but feel free to start a new one.

Hoardasurass · 09/04/2026 18:18

Kiminki · 09/04/2026 18:11

I am not derailing this thread but feel free to start a new one.

Or perhaps you could not use ABA to backup your claims or refer to it as training the autism away