Baby born from dead donor womb transplant in UK first

[IwantToRetire]

Commisseration and support for the family of the woman who died, and happy for the new mother.

But feel sort of uneasy about this.

https://news.sky.com/story/simply-a-miracle-baby-boy-born-from-dead-donor-womb-transplant-in-uk-first-13511093

I think this is important. I'm a pretty rational and often common sense thinker (and trained to be a rational debater) but I find the thought of a uterine transplant to be a bit unsettling. Maybe because it's so intimately connected with conception & gestation, nurture and giving life?

I'm childless (socially infertile - I don't even know if I ever was fertile because I never had the chance to find out) and I came to terms with that painful as it was, and I believe deeply that having a child is not a right. Maybe that informs my feeling that this is a bit unsettling.

But we are emotional as well as rational beings, and humans are ultimately social beings. We need to be able to ponder and debate these sorts of things.

I wonder if it's because human reproduction is so intimate and fundamental (obvs!) - it is qualitatively different to a corneal or kidney transplant because of the way we understand ourselves as human? That mother-child dyad is central to the way we're organised as a species.

Do you think the loved ones of a woman who has never discussed organ donation with them or has expressed reservations/doubts/limits are likely to say yeah OK use her uterus for an experimental donation or is it more likely that the family of someone who has expressed a desire to be a donor, has talked about being happy to donate any body part after death, may have seen news about the living uterus donation and talked about wanting to do something like that one day that would agree? My family know where I stand and opt in or opt out the family always get the final say so it's very likely that are aware that this is something the donor would be happy to do. If you had any doubt in your mind that a loved one would be unhappy with a donation why would you give consent?

Still banging the life limiting illness drum eh?

It's standard for IVF embryos to be subjected to genetic screening in the UK when the parents have a genetic illness. No one is deliberately making infertile babies FFS.

Would you be happy for someone to use your womb to bring a healthy baby into the world btw? I can't tell if it's people with genetic illnesses or just womb transplants in general you have a problem with but honestly it seems like both.

Has anyone mentioned the possible risk to the fetus of the drugs given when the woman receives a donated uterus, to avoid the body rejecting the foreign object? As with all infertility 'workarounds', the would-be parents' needs are prioritised over the needs of the child.

With surrogacy, the baby is ripped away from its birth mother, with whom it has 'communed', physically, for nine months. This new idea is, I continue to believe, grotesque, with not only potential harm to the fetus from the drugs but also of the organ dying or being infected or rejected by the body. There is also potential future psychological harm from the knowledge of gestation by a dead woman's uterus.

Not necessarily. When I signed up to be an organ donor I was able to select which organs I would want to be donated and which wouldn't. If there was no option for uterus as they're not common, then there may not be direct consent from the deceased.

A trope. Yes.

Anyone who has experienced infertility, been adopted or been remotely educated on either of those experiences knows that suggesting adoption as a cure for infertility doesn't serve the parents or the child.

Also, wrong poster with the womb transplant and other organs transplant comparisons, I haven't done that. Though I do agree with them.

Also, if anyone would like to opt out of donation of organs or tissue, here's the link to do it. If you don't opt out, it's assumed you agree to it.
https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-your-decision/do-not-donate/

Ah ok, I see there is no point trying to have a reasoned debate with you. The aggressive attitude calling everyone trolls and TRAs tells us all there's no point.

But infertility does kill people, over 50% of women going through infertility report feeling suicidal and an upsetting number of them do commit suicide. So it does kill people, it destroys marriages and mental health too. It's not something people "just get over" but I see there's no point trying to debate that with you.

So you're happy with assumed consent, not clear consent?

From what we know:

This woman may not have even realised that organ donation was 'opt out' now.
She may have been fine with donating organs, or she may not have.
She may have been clear with her family, or she may not.
Her family may have been strongly in favour of organ donation, so as she hadn't opted out, they thought it was right to go ahead.
Her family might be looking for some 'good' to come out of her death, but that doesn't mean she discussed wanting to donate organs with them.
She may have told them that she wanted to donate organs, but it seems unlikely she discussed donating her uterus specifically.
It's not likely the case in this situation, but in regards to some people they may not be on good terms with their family despite them being next of kin, so family may not make decisions in accord with the dead person's wishes.

Whatever the case may be, there was no clear, specific consent given to the NHS on the part of the dead woman, only a morass of assumptions.

An opt in system with a list of specific body parts would make much more sense. Or what's next? Someone's family giving permission for their eggs to be harvested, because ovaries are organs and you didn't opt out?

Organ donors have been having babies for years with no harm to the child you know.

I mean people are weird, abusive, controlling, and sometimes just totally different? The assumption family members can give consent on behalf of the dead is also questionable imo.

It not as straightforward as that. If you haven't opted out they don't just carve you up if you happen to have an accident that leaves you a suitable candidate for donation. It basically means if you have opted out it wouldn't be put to you family in event of such an accident where as if you haven't opted out the transplant team will open a dialogue with the family.
In the days of opt in even if you carried a donor card your family could refuse consent. That is still the case with opt out.

Do you think a donor coordinator is like to put someone forward for an experimental outside the usual organs donation if the family say we have no idea what her feelings on donation were? I would assume this is only suggested to families who indicate that their loved one pro any donation and had expressed that to them.

You are very aggressive.
None of us have any idea if this baby has been screened for the same genetics and as you keep shouting, it is private and all about the mother. My point is this should not be the main reason to bring children into the world if we aren't 100% sure they aren't continuing problematic genetics.

Organ donors are dead and can't have babies?

You make a lot of assumptions.

I feel wrong about this and have as acresult of this opted out of organ donation.

Okay, but surely if you opt out it is very straightforward, and your organs/tissue cannot be donated, even if your next of kin might agree?

That's right-if you opt out you won't be a candidate for donation. That's what opting out means.

But that was the case when it was opt in. The family could veto your willingness to be a donor. They can't veto your opt out though.

The old donor cards used to have a catch all box Any Part of My Body May Be Used.
Maybe that was the dead woman's thoughs.

I had one card that included Cornias as an option and an earlier on that didn't. I assume cornias were a newer thing than organs.
Maybe bombs would be added to that list sooner or later.

Probably not ever going to have bombs on the list 🤣

Does this mean that a biological man can sustain womb in his body and raise a baby?

No, of course not.

thanks Goodness..