Webberly reports Cass to the GMC - get popcorn

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.helenwebberley.com/p/i-have-referred-dr-hilary-cass-to

We need to remember that Plastic surgery (reconstruction or surgery to help with disfigurement) is not the same as Cosmetic surgery (on a healthy and physically normal individual).

Yes, that's a good additional point. And even where plastic surgery may be a possible intervention to mitigate disfiguring effects of illness or injury, its risks and unintended effects have to be taken into account and sometimes render it unadvisable or even unethical. How much more so, when the surgery takes place on a normal healthy body.

I think it's pretty pointless engaging with this bad faith poster who in their very first post states that

Dr Webberley is right in referring Dr Cass to the GMC as she does not share the whole story and very much pushes a rhetoric against it.

It's just another TRA who thinks they have "Gotchas" that will persuade MN that men belong in female single sex spaces.

It is so Capitalistic to undermine physically normal and healthy people so that they think they need surgery and other treatments.

I said earlier that the bottom line is money.

Someone, somewhere, is making a profit from all this.

Oh, yes, this is a thread about Webberly... I wonder how she makes her living?

'It's just another TRA who thinks they have "Gotchas" that will persuade MN that men belong in female single sex spaces.'

I predict that #SadTimes are in the future for them then.

As far as I know children are not allowed to have cosmetic surgery. So if that is the argument it is a very poor one.

Thank you ! I think many of the women on here are gender non-conforming too, so it's not just me.

If you've researched the social history of sex and stereotypes, you'll know that the women's movement in the 1970s and early 80s managed to reduce the impact of gender stereotyping - photos from that period will show school children with similar clothes and haircuts, women were taking up trades and professions which had been closed to them previously, there were campaigns - often humorous - against blatantly sexist advertising
[e.g. an ad for a car that said 'If this car was a woman, it would have its bottom pinched' was graffitied with 'If this woman was a car, she'd run you over'😄]

On a more serious note, it was also the era of women's refuges, rape crisis centres, Reclaim the Night, Women against Violence against Women, etc.

Gender stereotyping was consigned to the bin - David Bowie, Marc Bolan, and later Annie Lennox are examples of how people could present themselves without denying biological sex.

But there was a backlash against the modest gains of the women's movement.
Disney princesses. Fairies. Butterflies. Pink. Glitter. Sparkles. Once again 'femininity' was associated with this kind of stereotype.

We are still in the tail end of that glitter-washing. Boys who are not comfortable being male seem to be taking the glittery stereotype of femininity as the model for 'feeling like a woman' and seeking to transition.

When men say they 'feel like a woman' they seem to have a limited opinion of what a woman is, and it owes more to the sparkly backlash than to the women's liberation women of the 1970s and 80s, or the reality of most women's lives in the 2020s.

I feel very sorry for children who are presented with 'this is what a boy should be like' and 'this is what a girl should be like' and if they don't fit the stereotypes, they are the problem, not the stereotypes. and need 'care', in your opinion of the gender-affirming kind.

You said previously I agree we need to remove gender stereotypes, but until that day, they are there and they affect everyone.
If we had to wait until the world was perfect to do the right thing, we'd never achieve anything.
Women in the recent past did a pretty good job of removing many gender stereotypes, so you shouldn't be so pessimistic
Until such time as we reach the day you think marks the end of gender stereotypes, I'm not prepared to accept the damage they do to children, who are led to believe - not by you, but by a very influential and powerful movement - that they have an inherent gender, rather than a socially constructed model of one, which may be at odds with their biological gender, and that it is possible for them to change sex so it accords with their inherent gender.

I'm against anybody young or old being encouraged to believe things that aren't true.

And let's look up the follow-up rates for each sector, shall we?

A man has SRS or FFS in Thailand, or Spain, or France. Who's monitoring him in the UK?

If it’s a little too hard for Tired to answer, maybe they could just define the single word “gender”. Ideally in one sentence and see if the word “stereotypes” can be avoided.

im patient, I’ll wait too.

I've posted this on the other Cass thread, but posting it here as well as it is so shocking. This is from the North Dorset Green Party's facebook page.. absolutely outrageous claims regarding suicide being covered up etc.

Is there any point in reporting this?

Gender: Used by coy Americans - and others - when they are too embarrassed to say/write 'sex'. Also used to signify masculine and feminine stero...

Oh, I failed.

I'd say leave them to it. They're TRA nutters. Even P-t-d on Reddit has the measure of all the anti-Cass nonsense. In a thread about that exact Dorset Greens post, in answer to a "How can this be going on!" wail:

Protect-the-dollz
• 2h ago

Honestly?
Because it was backed by the Royal Colleges and the devolved Medical Officers.

The UK has a hierarchy of sources. An independent NHS review sits right at the top of that.

They only realistic way it gets changed is if the RCs start clamouring for it.

They won't be persuaded by anything less than major studies in the Lancet or BMJ or similiar high impact medical journals, preferably written by clinicians working with academics from major universities.

When you look at the peer reviewed stuff against Cass almost all of it is from non clinicians writing in low impact journals.

That just isn't enough in a UK context.

Note - I am not defending the system, just trying to explain why one can read 15+ studies disagreeing with or critiquing Cass and yet there is no hint of a change from the NHS.

Then another one of them witters on about WPATH 🙄

Thanks, yes you're right. The problem with Facebook is so many people will see this, under a Green Party banner, and think these claims are true and will go on to repeat them. I guess that's just part and parcel of the misinformation mill on social media.

And the child will be prescribed these drugs after a full and thorough diagnosis is made by an actual Dr who is trained in that area of medicine who will also monitor and follow up on the child and their progress.

The Webberleys of this world would hate for PB's to become an actual approved and mainstream medical treatment as they won't be able to make any money selling shady drugs to desperate kids over the internet.

In fairness to Tired, what happens to occasional posters like them is that they are visiting a thread where [a] nobody agrees with them and [b] everybody has already given this a lot of thought and research so [c] it's very easy to refute their statements.

Having a whole board of posters disagreeing vehemently [but politely] with you from a position of knowledge can't be easy.

They can try matching us reputable source for reputable source, or they can accuse us of a pile-on and of being nasty bigots who are responsible for the toxicity of the discussion, or they can just go away.

It's sometimes the case that they come on here just to get quotes to prove just how toxic we are, which must be disappointing because it's usually like this - we've engaged with Tired in a non-toxic way, we've asked questions e.g. How do you define 'gender'? we've read replies, and responded to them thoughtfully.

That's true, isn't it, Tired?

Yes. Good point. Props to you tired for engaging (and not just a drive by scolding, as we get lots of) I am feeling very snappy and impatient so didn’t acknowledge how it’s actually a good change to find people engaging in hopefully good faith. There is a wealth of information from posters here and it’s good when people can access that and forge discussions rather than echo chamber. Apologies for using that expression as a verb and pls excuse my shit spag today! I feel like I’m letting the whole class down as well as myself

"Why is it that people feel it necessary to stop puberty from happening when a young person may not be 'ready' for puberty"

They're not young people they're children and why do you think puberty is something any child has a choice about. It's not like choosing to get up or not, or eat they're greens or not. Puberty is a natural part of the maturing process, you don't get to put it off until you're in the mood for it. 🤯

I see there's been a lot of publicity about this stunt, no doubt Webley's aim.

It's relatively simple to measure the onset of puberty. A child entering puberty at an age lower than the accepted norms (which are the age of 8-16 for a girl) can be diagnosed and treated.

The puberty blocking drugs should not be prescribed to girls over the age of 8 because they would be within the normal range to start puberty.

The opposite applies to a child questioning their gender. They would not normally enter into precocious puberty (they could but then they would be treated for the medical condition, not for being gender questioning). The child (or rather the child's parents) would be requesting puberty to be blocked at a time when it should naturally occur for that child - over the age of 8 for a girl or 9 for a boy.

That is why they are prescribed for some children and not others.

It is not possible to measure or diagnose 'gender'.

What I am also saying though is that if someone feels they a child has do not align to the sex assigned at birth a MH issue about her/his body or their gender identity is different to the forms her/his personal belief system linking to stereotypical societal norms they she/he should be afforded the same care medical interventions as those who have affirming care in the same gender they were born with or identify with as children of the same sex as her or him

So that would MH support not an attempt to cosmetically change her/his body

Every case of gender affirming care giving off lable drugs to a teenager to attempt to prevent puberty is different from those who have procedures done to enhance their current gender a medical process to delay puberty in children with precocious puberty
to those the children that have procedures been given off lable drugs to alter or change their gender physical body by disrupting puberty (and all forms of care in between including psychological care).

So MH is recognised as a MH issue and a physical issue recognised as a physical issue.

If you're against gender affirming care using off lable drugs for trans people, children with MH issues then you should be against it the use of specific drug used to delay not prevent puberty for cis people children with precocious puberty

The problem of trying to use the physical issue of precocious puberty to justify the attempt to prevent the childs body going through its maturation process into adulthood is that they are not the same thing at all

It's like a six stone weakling demanding they be prescribed anabolic steroids so that they can develop the well muscled body that they identify as possessing. We shouldn't be allowing drug abuse by children or adults whether it's cross sex hormones or anabolic steroids.

Medical intervention is first do no harm and then so the minimum to return the child to her/his (hopefully) prior healthy state or if there was no prior healthy state to benchmark "healthy state" against the healthy body/mind of a child of the same sex and age.

Can you explain to me why any medical "care" should be "affirming"?

🚩

The men and non-mens party said the is a wholescale coverup by
• the famalies who accept a death cert
• the first responders and doctors involved
• the coroner who issues a cause of death other than the child took her/his own life
• the ONS who publish analysis of the data

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2024registrations
Samaritans for free on 116 123 (UK and Ireland) or contact other sources of support, such as those listed on the NHS help for suicidal thoughts web page. Support is available 24 hours a day, every day of the year, providing a safe place for you, whoever you are and however you are feeling.

Sigh

Idiots should stop doing the whole speak out with BS claims.

Nobody has no doubt as to how much an idiot the idiots are when the idiot opts for that.....

She's an absolute crackpot!

Even Reddit seem to think she's more hindrance than help these days.

Canada may have self ID (which is irrelevant here) but where does it say that jail is the result of suggesting counselling for gender dysphoria? I believe we need to listen to young people and support them, but in a way that is neither suggesting they should transition nor that they shouldn't. We need to listen to young people, have conversations with them and understand their individual situations without judgement. My own daughter and I had a conversation where they thought they might be trans. I didn't judge, I asked questions to understand why and what their thoights were and how they came to them. In the end, through conversation and understanding she came to the decision that they were more gender fluid than one or the other. If she'd have wanted to speak to a GP or felt she needed more help then we would've approacjes it that way.
When you look at the Cass report, they spoke with 8 people out of thousands to come to their conclusions about the care that was provided.

As far as I am aware the Cass report was a review of existing studies, not a study in itself.

Relying on a child to answer questions about their wishes seems unfair if adults are proposing something - changing sex - that isn't possible.

I don't understand why anyone would assume it to be a good idea to permanently prevent a child from reaching sexual maturity, which is the long term goal of this treatment. The goal is not to pause puberty until the child can cope, but to prevent puberty entirely.

Most adult trans people do not have 'bottom surgery' which indicates that they value their sex lives (and don't want to risk the complications), and many have had children - why remove that option? What problem is trying to be solved?