is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

[weegielass]

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

According to information online figures for 2022/3 there were 3 TM in prison in Scotland and 2 were in the male estate. Not much information since.

@Justme56

Wow, do you have any links?

I think that one was moved on her request and was removed back to the Womans Prison within days by the Prison.

A woman who may be on MN but was on X as I think KPSS(?). She worked in the Prison service campaigns and does talks on the impact one man has in the Womens Prisons mentioned it in one of her recorded speeches

Were you able to pay attention through that? I don't know if I just couldn't concentrate because I've got a lot on my mind, or if I'm so far from understanding his points that they were sliding off my ears.

So, even the Scottish HRC recognizes the rights of women prisoners and staff don’t appear in the guidance as factors to be taken into account.

I wonder how the Scottish Ministers are going to explain that one away.

The judge said it was helpful to have the SHRC advocate's perspective.

I'm a bit worried that she's going to go along with the 'just because this policy has problems doesn't mean we can't have a policy at all' stance.

Another point that the SHRC made was about whether “bright line” or “blanket rules” are legal. He said that where unqualified rights (such as the right to life) are concerned, hard and fast rules that might sometimes lead to an individual’s rights being breached can’t be justified.

A rule without exceptions, such as the one FWS say should be implemented, can only be lawful if the occasional hard case only leads to a breach of someone qualified rights, such as their article 8 rights to privacy, family life etc.

I was trying and failing dismally to keep track of both this and the GEO Amey live feed.

Is someone choosing to harm themself a breach of their right to life? This is an abusers charter to get whatever they want at all times by just threatening to harm themselves.

A significant argument made yesterday was that when considering human rights, they are already baked in to the EA2010. Parliament was well acquainted with the 1998 Human Rights Act when it passed the EA. If the EA authorizes someone to act in a certain way that person can’t have a second bite at the cherry in a domestic court to say “yes the EA allows that but the HRA doesn’t”. That’s not within the authority of a domestic court.

It will be interesting to see if the judge agrees.

I think a genuine risk of suicide by members an identifiable group does fall under Article 2. That’s not going anywhere near as far as saying that any and all demands must be met under the threat of self harm.

'A rule without exceptions, such as the one FWS say should be implemented, can only be lawful if the occasional hard case only leads to a breach of someone qualified rights, such as their article 8 rights to privacy, family life etc.'

Putting any male into a women's prison breaches every woman's right to a single sex prison. If they dont believe a.single sex space is justified they will have to make all.prisons mixed sex.

Plenty of males are at risk of suicide - do they all get put into women's prison to improve their mental health?

All of these risible arguments were dealt with firmly by the SC. I can hardly believe the Scotgov are retrying it, again, in a lower ciurt. Are they not embarrassed?!

But wouldnt the obligation be to ensure their opportunities for self harm are limited as far as possible rather than meeting their demands whether that be a demand to be moved to the female estate or a demand by a non trans identifying male to be moved to a lower security facility closer to their home?

Why are they continually referencing violent Transwomen prisoners? even a non violent Transwoman in a female prison creates a humiliating and degrading environment for the female prisoners and staff.

Lady Ross asked AO what if there was a prisoner for whom the only way a suicide risk could be managed was to place them in the women’s estate. That I think led to the point about how there cannot be a trans veto on women only prisons.

I suspect the SM will argue they must have the flexibility to put a suicidal man in a women’s prison, and I think (I hope) that LR will say that it is not reasonable to argue there could ever be a man whose suicidality could only be managed that way.

Remember we were joking about large screen TVs and foie gras? These are obvious points and the court will have to address them.

Plenty of prisoners in general are at risk of suicide because they have been locked up in a prison. Letting these prisoners out would help improve their mental health - do they all get to be released?

Quite. And it isn’t violent vs non-violent either; it is men who have been convicted of violence or not. Not having been convicted of a violent crime is hardly a guarantee that they will not commit a sexual offence or violence in future. Stripping off in the showers in front of women is surely sexual exposure?

It is hardly an ‘occasional’ breach if the prison is always has at least one man in it.

This is from the MBM analysis June 2023.

Dr Upton was non-violent but his presence in a female changing room was humiliating and degrading.

And it destroys the single-sex space for ALL the women.

Every time the man is in the women's prison all the the women in that prison have their human rights removed, they are at higher risk of assault and are being coercively controlled and emotionally abused.

I actually want to know how many women are being abused and having their human right to a single-sex space removed.

Not how many men, how many women.

And the risk of harm Dr Upton presented was not confined to changing rooms - he also looked for offence in daily interactions and stated he would treat a patient who refused to consent to someone his sex treating them (which would be assault).