is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

[weegielass]

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

I think women forcibly locked up with violent, coercively controlling men, with that coercive control enabled and supported by the state is a human rights abuse and could well promote a similar level of despair to that felt by women in Afghanistan. What rights do these women have? The state is forcing them to lie. What else is it forcing? Cover up of sexual harassment, seemingly from the testimony they tried to suppress. How hard was it to get that testimony out? Woman who named reality prosecuted and privileges denied for 'transphobia'. How can any of them feel safe to speak up knowing how they could be punished.

What if the man in the women's prison is going to threaten to commit suicide unless he gets to shower with a certain prisoner, for example. Or left alone with her for a bit. With this as the basis, not caring how women feel about men in their prison, how far will they go? Who would know if they did this with the coercive control fully in place?

There's another court case going on about weeding out prison officers who won't go along with it.

It's a different context but the utter control of these women's lives and determination to subordinate them to men is the same as in Afghanistan.

I think it's important to point out because I remember so vividly an article by Afghanistan women journalists after the Taliban took over - men they had worked alongside, were colleagues, who they thought would rise up with them to protect women's rights went along with it.

It's why this fight is so important - this case and the SG's argument is a massive red flag to all women. At the moment the rest of society is not in the same position as the women in Scottish prisons. But if they're willing to use their power to do this to vulnerable women in prison, do we really think that ANY woman is safe from being used as a product to soothe an allegedly suicidal man's soul? They are institutionalising coercive control abuse of women.

Amy’s Reindorf and Naomi Cunningham speak well on this - the GRC is a relatively good thing. It’s why the UK has legally managed to defend many GC cases- because there is a completely independent way of legally acknowledging trans people by the state . So useful that it is separate to women’s sex based rights - in other countries the two are muddled together and it will be a nightmare to unpick. The GRC may seem to cause problems but actually is probably the route to a solution 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻 Yes they can have their piece of paper and other acknowledgments but we all still understand they are the sex they were at conception

Naomi Cunningham on X:

"Suppose a male prisoner says he’ll kill himself if not provided with access to prostitutes? Where exactly is the limit to women’s duty to indulge and submit to men?"

Following on from @Igneococcus ' post on the prepared, Prof McQueen was awarded a CBE for services to the NHS in 2021, and is also vice-chairwoman of Scotland's drugs deaths taskforce, according to the BBC.
Onwards and upwards.

"prepared" = "previous page"

I think it's the seeing of women as inanimate, male owned resources to deploy when required for society's benefit that pisses me off the most.

This is never pointed out or questioned. The focus is always on 'how much can we ethically break women in the better interests of men before it gets unreasonable'. Men debating with other men largely.

@OpheliaWitchoftheWoods
Absolutely, and this is why I'll never vote SNP again. Unfortunately, a large enough minority will keep voting for them to keep them in power. When I try to explain to my (mostly female) friends why I won't vote SNP, they look at me like I'm a tin-foil-hat wearing heretic. How bad does it have to get before enough people can see it to put a stop to it?

As with Afghanistan where women thought as things got bad that people would resist and refuse, and instead just went along with it. We will be enabled into women being subordinated in law by a lot of well intentioned stupid middle class women too busy virtue signalling about how open minded and progressive they are.

They never stop to ask themselves in which direction they are progressing, merely felicitating themselves on being "Progressive" is sufficient..

For those of you not on X, Lucy Hunter Blackburn has posted the following 'draft' of a proposed new Scottish Government Bill. Echoes of Jonathan Swift, who would have been good round about now.

Women (National Resource) (Scotland) Bill
[DRAFT]

An Act of the Scottish Parliament to exploit the value of the female half of the population and something about dogs, just to justify spending any time on it

1.Relevant purposes
(1) A woman may be treated as a resource for the following purposes

(a) The performance of a sexual act for payment
(b) Alleviating mental distress in men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in prisons
(c) Providing psychological support to men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in settings including but not limited to

(i) prisons
(ii) rape and sexual crisis violence crisis centres
(iii) domestic violence services
(iv) hospitals, including closed mental hospitals
(v) schools
(vi) sports

(d) The supply of eggs for other individuals using assisted reproductive technology

(e) The supply of new-born babies under contract to other individuals, provided that any associated payments are described as 'expenses'

(f) The management of misbehaviour by boys in school

(g) Politically opportunistic statements about violence against women and women's financial circumstances and any other related matter

(h) Any other purposes for which Scottish Ministers may from time to time make provision by Order.

2.Dogs
Something about dogs that isn't really needed but makes a good headline.

3.Interpretation
(1) For all the purposes covered by this Act, everyone knows what a woman is, but for the avoidance of doubt, in section 1, a woman is a person defined by reference to their biological sex being female.

(2) In this section, “biological sex” means sex at birth.

😂😂😂 far too close to reality.

There is the possibility of ensuring that a GRC refers only and solely to 'gender' and 'gender identity', and that all necessary instances are strictly sex based.

Anyone can have a special certificate to record the gender of their choice. On purple paper with gold embossed writing and as many wee flags and stickers as they like.

Birth certs, passports, any official ID, remain sex based. And the EA SSEs refer solely to sex.

This is actually pretty much what we have; if we can only get the Scottish govt to wake up to reality.

Excellent point, I think this should be campaigned for as part of the “bright line” mentioned in this case

It's seriously disturbing to think that women's right in the UK hinge on the fact that we have the legal fiction that is the GRC.

The probable route to a solution seems a trifle optimistic, the GRC changes their sex, they might only be legally female, but giving them that much is a mistake, a fiction, even a legal fiction is still a fiction.

I've spent a large part of the last week with a young man in prison who has been threatening to kill himself if the prison management don't acquiesce to his demands requests. We're not going along with his requests, it's not going to happen. I know for a fact that he is capable of at least attempting to carry out his threats. He hasn't killed himself yet.

Why are his demands unreasonable, while a man who says he will kill himself if he isn't locked up with women is immediately pandered to? Is my prisoner less important, less valuable, less worthy?

Usual mitigations are considering therapeutic treatment, eliminating risks, managing behaviour. Not providing comfort women.

Take look at the case law prior to the GRA - now that is disturbing. Individual judges allowed far greater leeway to TIMs than the GRA affords. Croft v Royal Mail & the hair-raising A v the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire are worth your while.

Naomi Cunningham contrasts the pre & post-GRA situations as the latter being "a wide gate but into a small paddock" & the former being "a narrow gate onto the entire hillside". The smallness of that GRA paddock is why Gender Identitarian activists have spent the last 15 years or more lying about its effects.

Really good points.

Brilliant! I would laugh, but it’s too near the knuckle.

Thank you for quoting it better than me - I was trying to remember the paddock analogy and failing.

Seems odd but maybe in the end we will be thankful for Goodwin and the resulting GRA.

It’s weird to see this stated so plainly; otherwise difficult to see the water we swim in.

Ive long been annoyed about the way girls are used in schools to try to civilise the boys - at our cost.

A tangent but this week Netflix offered me Love is Blind Habibi. It was fascinating. The attitudes of some of the men were straight out of the 1900s. Two in particular were paired with beautiful women who dressed in a modern western style - but they soon showed signs of wanting them more modest. One insisted that his match obey him and his wife would not be permitted to dance. It was fascinating because both men looked like the epitome of coercive controllers but believed themselves to be “right” in the “Arab tradition”. They were astonished that a woman would pick her love of dancing - “such a small thing” - over this man she’d ostensibly only just met and dare to reject this potential “husband”. Sorry for rambling but their total blindness to alternative points of view was what fascinated me. And made me think about how women are viewed in our society - these men were explicit about what they expected but in our society this stuff about women as obedient support humans is implied - so much more difficult to tackle. Scotgov and the rest - like the reality show contestants- seem to believe they are “right”. The misogyny is really scary!

So many country's outside the West have medieval attitudes towards women, that's why it's so, so .... annoying (shall we say) that the lefties in the West want to take us back to the same times and call it 'progressive' 🤬

Your prisoner’s demands will be seen as unreasonable but the ideologues and ‘be kinders’ like SH with her interest in counselling (and may be a dangerous amateur like people I know of) whether they believe that TWAW or not will automatically give more weight to the threats from the TiM believing it comes from a genuine sense of self. They have fallen for the ‘most marginalised vulnerable group’ lie.

All I can say is thank fuck we had a conservative government at the time of the GRR in Scotland and thank fuck for the section 35 being enacted. Otherwise we would have self ID into prisons and women prisoners would have no protection from these violent men.

There’s no way the current Labour government would have done that. Wish the Supreme Court ruling had come during the conservative governments time in office too. I regret my Labour vote.

Yes, IIRC in Scotland they rejected every single amendment which would have given women some protection.