is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

[weegielass]

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

The gaslighting in action is so obvious to me. I'm angry at the government for doing it, and I'm angry at everyone who falls for it! 😂
(Obvs I can't judge, as I totally fell for it when my ex was doing it to me)

Has the SG's advocate got to the point about the SC's clarification goes against the Human Rights Act which is what the SG is maintaining isn't it?

From Nick Wallis

But parly has not considered the effect of the rule that if you exclude M from W estate, suicide is an acceptable hard case.

On what basis does he assert that Parliament hasn't considered this?

I get the feeling he knows his ship is sinking. I wonder if the judge thinks so too.

Surely this suicide thing is a red herring. Lots of male prisoners will be suicidal if they don't get what they want - why are TIMS being treated so differently? (Rhetorical question...)

Absolutely. Exactly how it works. It starts with a big argument IME and then starts getting rolled in, indirectly, to much more trivial things you do wrong. In a “I don’t know if I can go on like this” kind of way.

It is, in an odd sort of way, quite comforting to see the point of frothing batshit and know that really is all they have .

Yes, my ex used that exact phrase.

Can all men come in the female estate if they say they are suicidal, or do they have to say they are a “woman” first? Seems unfair.

Men always look like men, even Mr M Bergdorf, who has spaffed millions of dollars on plastic surgery, still looks like a bloke, with fake breasts, fake nails and hair, shaved jaw line, fake eyelashes, eyebrows, a lorry load of face paint, dodgy frocks and huge stilettos etc etc he still just looks like a man in drag. We cannot exchange our bodies, our very skeletons are different as any archaeologist will tell you. Even my cat could tell the difference - he hated and feared men.

Yes. Experienced, highly paid professionals have spent time trying to make this make sense, and this is all they have.

Discriminatory, in fact.

I agree, it would be very discriminatory.

The respondents' barrister's delivery comes across like his team has not gamed out this summing up at all

Agree.

I accept this may be a stupid question but if it is accepted that prison causes mental health issues but we still put people in prison how can it be said that Parliament has not considered it?

Putting in a rule that TIMs can only go to women's prison if they threaten suicide will only increase suicide threats / attempts within that group. And the risk of death by misadventure.

This argument actually increases risk of harm to trans prisoners.

Jeez did he really just try to argue that putting TW in a male prison would kill them?!?!

🎯

Sorry for not following the whole thread - I am starting to weary of it all. But would someone mind explaining to me the legal basis on which the Scottish government is arguing for putting trans-identified males in women's prisons? I assume they recognise that the Supreme Court has ruled that women's spaces are for biological women only, therefore how is it possible to challenge this legally? Are they using the Human Rights Act?

I think the judge is ever so slightly impatient, and I think it's because she wants him to go away and blow his nose, FFS.

If men are violent to other men that cannot be a problem for women - men's prisons are surely used to handling that. Women are not support animals for men, or canaries to test on in the mines.

His tone is so boring I am struggling to concentrate but he seems to be pointing out to the judge all the reasons why he is wrong

Yes, that was my understanding. Thankfully the judge pulled him up on it.

It's all very "Look what you're making me do," isn't it? If you don't give TiM prisoners what they want it's your fault and you're killing them.

Gaslighting bullshit.