Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

Indeed. Bet you this weeks’ Euro lottery jackpot OP is male.

What is your understanding of fetishistic paraphilia? Feel free to refer to the ICD.

The comparitor for women would be boxer shorts or y fronts, a white vest and presumably sock suspenders.

Hmm, solo sexy time.

I know the discussions of the appalling John Money over the last week have focussed on the effects of his cruelty and cynicism on individual boys, but I also believe that his insistence on the psychiatric profession replacing the long established word 'perversion' with 'paraphilia' has had a long-term dangerous effect on the way we think. And that that is why Money did it.

Oh yes, imagine how well it would go down with the TRAs and the 'be kinders' if you said XXX is a pervert.

This includes XXX being someone who is a conviced sex offender.

I don't particularly just blindly believe in any study, which I'm assuming you're referring to. I'm sure you don't either, so appeals to authority like that aren't going to work. And I don't need studies to use my own brain and come to logical conclusions.

The gender critical mantra is often that boys and girls should be able to be as feminine or as masculine as they want, and in some people's cases, they claim that 'gender stereotypes' are dangerous and offensive. They also talk about how it's wrong to associate dresses or makeup with women, because it could confuse a feminine boy into being 'trans'd'. So there's a very obvious and shallow contradiction happening when those same people are suddenly trying to generalize that men who were dresses or excessively feminine clothing are in fact, some sort of predator. Trying to link dress sense to being a bad person completely contradicts the earlier attitude that men can dress as they want and that gender norms can be harmful. If you;re attitude is that it's okay for women to wear dresses, but men who wear dresses should be met with scorn and suspicion, then that is literally a gender norm you're pushing.

I can appreciate you're completely agenda driven and, but sometimes you need to establish consistent ethical/moral beliefs, or else it just makes you look like you're seizing the opportunity to shit stir as much as possible. Is it okay for men and women to dress as femininely or masculinely as they want, or isn't it?

I've seen plenty of information to say that AGP isn't a thing or is very exaggerated or misrepresented. But more to the point, you have no idea what someone is like just by looking at them. And fetishes don't = criminal. How is it even your business what people think of themselves?

My 'gender critical mantra' is that masculine and feminine are aspects of grammar and have no relevance to living mammals of any species.

Gender does not exist except as an imaginary construct. Sex is real and relevant.

Some people in every population are predators, that's not justification to tell people who aren;t doing anything wrong where they can or can't go. And those pictures aren't validating your argument, because if a man behaves inappropriately in the men's room, that is just as wrong, and if bad enough, could result in arrest. Which room it happens in makes no difference.

“So there's a very obvious and shallow contradiction happening when those same people are suddenly trying to generalize that men who were dresses or excessively feminine clothing are in fact, some sort of predator.”

Who is making that generalisation?

There is undoubtedly a group of male people with paraphilias that include them being treated as if they are female as a means of sexual arousal. There are also male people who wear dresses for numerous other reasons.

Not ‘all’ male people wearing dresses are doing so as part of their paraphilia. However, it is also not accurate to claim that acknowledging there are a group with these paraphilias, who are doing so in public thereby forcing other people to participate without consent, is somehow not a feminist discussion point.

It's pretty established at this point that most gender critical people promote the idea of gender non conformity. And as it was clearly stated, I was talking about gender norms, not gender identity. And I also never spoke about biological sex in one way or the other.

So your comment doesn't actually address the large contradiction on display.

Good thing you aren't a mental health professional, telling people their trauma is 'appropriation'. I thought a lot of gender critical people claimed that there's an excessive number of autistic and 'neurodivergent' people groomed into being trans? The switch flips very fast from treating them as victims, to demonizing them.

I think if you look more carefully you will find that most people labelled 'gender critical' are actually 'gender atheist' and do not believe that gender is something a human being (or any other mammal) can have. Most of us were adults for years before gender got its new definition and started being imposed in the 1990s and have neither need nor use for such reductive and oppressive and misogynist and homophobic nonsense.

Gender is not a thing.

There is a difference IMO between a dress or skirt that is designed, cut and tailored for the male physique and a dress or skirt that is designed, cut and tailored for the female physique that meets common, everyday, decency requirements.

A trouser suit cut for a man and a trouser suit cut for a women are not shaped the same.

If men wanted dresses and skirts to become unisex items of clothing (in terms of no-one bats an eyelid is a man wears a dress or a skirt) then designers would make and sell these items of clothing to suit male bodies and men would buy and wear them.

They would not be 'gender euphoria' causing items of clothing though.

So, what is it that men want? Skirts that men can wear (they could buy a utility kilt) or a euphoria boner?

"So you're saying that boys hearing that cross-dressing men are likely to be dangerous to women will make them want to cross-dress?"

No, you have reading comprehension issues it seems. I said generalizing that men who were dresses are predators will increase the likelihood of men and boys feeling insecure to dress femininely, potentially making them more receptive to the idea that they might be trans. Again, something many 'gender critical' people have said themselves. Which contradicts the claims that gender non conforming people should be encouraged to dress they want.

"I think you might want to look at what crimes men who want to be seen as women have been imprisoned for." Is this a majority of them? There are polar opposite claims that most trans people are gay and autistic and not predatory at all. Considering trans people are a small population in the first place, none of these contradictory generalizations really make sense. Apparently I can sensibly assume that a trans person is autistic and gay at a glance, but then I can also assume that they're straight and likely a predator too.

Maybe making entire assumptions about a persons character based on what they look like isn't a good idea.

Maybe they don't want a unisex style? Why are you policing how people dress? I don't think men look good in feminine dresses and less they actually manage to look extremely feminine, but I also don't really care. And you didn't answer the question as to why gender critical people promote that boys can be as feminine as they want and wear what they want, only to then generalize that men who wear dresses are perverts. That's a direct conflict of interest. I thought you were worried about gender non conforming youth being 'trans'd'?

Which had nothing to do with my comments about whether or not it's okay for men and boys to wear dresses. Try to follow what people actually write.

For clarity I don't mind men wearing dresses if those dresses are tailored to the occasion, so for example in the 90s I once physically bumped into Evan Dando backstage at Reading festival, he was in a dress and carrying a guitar and wore same onto stage a few hours later. All fine.

I do mind men in their 50s turning up at work on their day off having booked a meeting with me that day, dressed as Little Bo Peep; in frilly knickers that were visible, with pubic hair tufting out of said knickers, with hair in little bows at a venue where school children mostly primary aged regularly visited, because it was a visitor attraction, as happened to me about 10 years ago. Particularly if he is allowed to use the female toilets on the visitor side of the site.

What has shifted the goalposts on 'most gender critical people believe' is the boundary line where men got progressively more and more boundary pushing and were able to demonise women of all levels and ages for saying 'no', and this has caused lots of women or 'gender criticals' to say 'actually men if you can't be trusted to leave the fetish gear at home then we aren't going to support you in your other non conformist ways'.

Hope that helps.

If anyone is wondering why I mentioned 'meets common, everyday, decency requirements' it is because I don't think, for example, that a man or a woman should wear a sexy cat maid outfit when working in a church*.

*I don't want to derail but this comment is based on a RL situation which ended very sadly.

Seems pretty homophobic to promote casual assumptions that men who wear dresses are probably predators, considering that many gay men have worn dresses.

I've been following what you write and it's been about some fantasy construct rooted in costume that you believe in and claim the rest of us also believe in.

I did that in which post? Please quote it. Or apologise for lying about me.

The just no responses you are getting from some is in a response to a proposal so absurdly misinformed that it is not worth giving a greater response.

Who said the clothes would be a unisex style? I didn't.

I said that these items of clothing would be seen as unisex (both men and women can wear them).

The styling (in terms of fit) would suit the male or female shape depending on who would wear it, maybe, they would even come in different sizes! The fabric and colour was not something I mentioned at all. I'm sure that fashion and current trends would have an impact on that, as well as personal choice. Men can wear pink if they like (I remember the pink shirt thing and men have historically always worn pink too).

I don't label myself as 'gender critical', so you are harrying the wrong person over your other questions.

"Who is making that generalisation?" The people saying that men wearing dresses is a sign of being a pedo? Such as Posie Parker, and saying that men wearing dresses is inappropriate around children. How is that supporting gender non conformity?

"There is undoubtedly a group of male people with paraphilias that include them being treated as if they are female as a means of sexual arousal."

If people feel ;aroused' internally but aren't doing anything inappropriate, then I'm not sure what the issue is? You'll never know what other people are thinking because you're not a mind reader, so what people's inner fetishes are is irrelevant unless they commit an actual crime. And more importantly, you can't tell what people think or feel based on how they dress. So trying to promote speculation that men wearing dresses is somehow very relevant to being a pervert is actively at odds with the claim that it's okay for boys and men to be as feminine as they want.