"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 9

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov
Thread 7, 05-Nov to 11-Nov
Thread 8, 11-Nov to 16-Jan (last thread with the schedule and abbreviations)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital filed a legal case against their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses objected to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing was held between 20th October and 11th November and was live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have comprehensive information regarding this case on their substack, including archives of the twitter threads, lists of people involved and press releases.

At the time this thread was started, the judgment had not yet been published on the Courts website but was widely reported in the media that the NHS was found to have discriminated against the nurses, but the claims against Rose were not upheld.

Gender for 99.9% of people actually now means ‘sex’.

Not for me, and I doubt if I am only part of 0.1. For many of us gender is still a euphemism when we are trying to be polite.

Unfortunately, there are some circumstances where 'gender' works better. Gender Pay Gap is less ambiguous than Sex Pay Gap, for example

So you are one of those 99.9% of people then? In what way are you disagreeing with the quote?

Back when there was common sense and "gender pay gap" meant the gap in pay between men and women, the official Welsh translation was literally "the wage gap between the sexes". *

We need to adopt expressions that explain concepts clearly instead of smushing words together, even if that is common in English.

So "the wage gap between men and women" or "the wage gap between the sexes" absolutely should be the accepted description.

• It isn't any more, because the Welsh Government are captured numpties.

Has Welsh incorporated the word 'gender' into the language?

I have said that I’ve no idea. It should be defined by people who believe gender is not your biological sex which counts me out.

If you read the post I was responding to you will see I was agreeing that trying to define it may actually resolve the situation because it’s undefinable.

A word has been made up for it, yes.

Obviously words have to be coined for new inventions and concepts.

Unlike English, it's a neologism, not the term for grammatical gender repurposed. In fact it's the word for sex 'rhyw', with one of the endings often found in abstract concepts, '-edd' added to it to make 'rhywedd'.

Thank you. That is interesting

What an utter creep. I don't even know where to start...

https://x.com/i/status/2014358882190053533

I'm trying to get my head round what would need to be covered in legislation if the law accepts the fact that sex is not gender and that gender doesn't alter sex:

Sex is stable, so should be what is recorded in official documents and databases. It shouldn't be altered, and ones that have been altered/ misrecorded should be changed back.
If gender is also recorded, it should be an additional, optional and amendable field, which would allow for detransition.

Invasion and appropriation of opposite sex spaces and sex-related language etc should be off the table.

Children and young people should be protected from life-changing medical and surgical interventions until they are of age. This should include being allowed to explore all options therapeutically with a patient without being accused of "conversion therapy"

Nobody should be penalised, in law, or under workplace rules etc, for recognising sex as a reality.

With those caveats, there should be recognition that some people need/want to live and present unconventionally for their sex. Whether this is best defined as a natural condition, or as a belief, they would need the following:

Protection from discrimination (in employment, housing etc) relative to other members of their sex/ members of the general public, and from harassment, arising from how they appear, dress and present. There's nothing unique about that; it is analogous to protecting anyone else who "looks different" e.g. because of race or disability, or who wears special clothing because of their beliefs e.g. hijab, turban.
(As with religious dress, there will be negotiations to be made in specific instances where requirements conflict with the requirements e.g. of health and safety or a workplace dress code. This would cover things like turning up to work in inappropriately suggestive clothing.)

The following would probably depend on how gender is legally defined (a condition? A belief? A choice?):

There would be a discussion to have about what kind of gender related treatments should and shouldn't be a) legal at all and b) available on the NHS.

Providing separate spaces for people uncomfortable or not easily accommodated in spaces for their sex - is this most similar to disabled "reasonable adjustments", or to providing time out and a prayer space for Moslems, or what?

What other things might need to be covered?

Oh ffs. Does no one read properly any more?
I am NOT suggesting any such bloody thing!
Quite the opposite in fact.

I have already explained this to @RedToothBrush and had no acknowledgement of her mistake.

Didn't either you read the quote I was answering?

In a nutshell then
@FWSsupporter asked me "is God real?" in response to me telling her that gender identity isn't a real thing and gender dysphoria isn't a belief system, its a mental illness as she is arguing for it becoming a PC.
So I countered with "is a belief in God a mental illness?"

Because clearly it isn't and is therefore not the same thing.

She hasn't answered me yet.

Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that instead of quoting me, she tagged me on the end of a reply she made to another poster and so I answered that.
I really hope that clears this up now.

Those eyebrows are mesmerising.

@MistyGreenAndBlue sorry you got dragged into a derail and I responded to the wrong poster.

As I said my comment was cheeky. I could see where other people derailing your post was heading and wanted to move the thread away from a religious debate so didn’t respond. The short answer is no.

Edited to add you will appreciate with a lot of posters in the debate and not solely focused on Mumsnet it can be difficult to keep up.

Thank you. I suppose I quoted the question badly too. Its all got a bit metaphysical 😂
I got annoyed at being accused of saying something I would never say.

@MistyGreenAndBlue I completely understand. 💐

And his hands are enormous.

So in Welsh ‘Gender’ is even more likely to seem much the same word as ‘Sex’.

Wales is, from what I have read on this board often, one of the worst places for pushing gender ideas to young children in schools.

Yes, the American euphemism ‘Gender’ has taken over the word ‘Sex’ (pertaining to male and female) for 99.9% of people. That’s my claim.

Knowing it’s a euphemism at the same time as using in speech propagates the problem. The pp may mean that they say ‘gender’ for sex just to seem more polite while all the while knowing its ‘real’ meaning. But I do not believe most people do.

The real modern meaning is a bit drummed up, academic and confusing anyway. Most people take their everyday presentation as ordinary men or women for granted. It is not normally a self-conscious state of being needing a name distinct from ‘sex’. No wonder most people think these two words are interchangeable.

This is interesting. If you can plough through all the trans-inclusive signalling to the brethren, he is actually suggesting the provision of 'adequate, non-gendered individual toilets and changing rooms for those who wish to have more privacy' with a hope that eventually all facilities will be like that. He's not (openly anyway) suggesting that the 'trans-hostile' women use them and actually says he would prefer them and they would work for non-binary people too.
Brave man😂

Woah way to miss the obvious issue of women's rights to single sex spaces

Come to think of it this person seems to struggle to grasp reality and facts:

Rose wasn't a respondent in the Darlington case, this video seems to imply he was

It is libellous to call the nurses trans-hostile and anti-trans

it is beyond deluded to think that the NHS can afford to replace communal changing rooms with multiple individual private cubicles at the massive scale needed

Single sex spaces are not a legitimate aim. Right.

No, the law is not a mess since the FWS and the SC ruling doesn't clash with other legislation, quite the opposite in fact

Also... don't bring up your "shiny new equipment", mate. Literally nobody is interested.

Have you heard him "sing"?

OMG what? I'm not sure i want to hear him sing...

You don't!

I think there's quite an important point here about language. I remember reading a post on MN (I think) about the German language, which of course has masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns, and how it has adapted to the shiny new gender-filled world we live in. And the result is, it seems, that somehow German people are a bit boxed in by the grammar of their language and the way it being currently used. I'm not explaining myself at all well; I wonder if anyone else can remember the thread I was talking about. But it certainly made a broader point about the use of languages, all of them.

I was addressing the thread generally. I quoted you to make a point rather than replying to you!

I don't have to acknowledge a mistake because I wasn't making one!

There's more than you on the thread.