Can I change my caste?

[Tadpolesinponds]

I've just come across this interesting piece of legal advice on whether it's possible for someone in India to change their caste. There are apparently "caste certificates", and the authorities carry out stringent checks when issuing a certificate. They don't accept self-declaration. There is nothing you can do to change your caste. Being a member of a disadvantaged caste can give you access to government aid, for instance, and for this reason lying about your caste or falsifying a caste certificate can lead to dismissal and even prosecution. But apparently in the UK we can't manage to have a single document which accurately says what sex someone is.
Can I Change My Caste?

I mean, the Indian government officially recognises three genders.
Also, as per a PP, caste is a "real" thing, not just a social construct. There are genetic differences between e.g. Brahmins and Dalits (though I realise these are probably due to centuries of marrying within ones own caste). Not saying that I agree with it as a system for ranking people's worth in society, any more than it would be right to rank people by their ethnicity. Just saying that it's more than merely a social construct.

The issue is not about the merits or otherwise of the caste system. No one here is suggesting that the caste system is beneficial to anyone.

The point very much is self identification. People fake caste certificates to benefit from the affirmative action directed towards lower castes. To the extent that people who are entitled are finding it difficult to prove their eligibility. For example

https://theleaflet.in/affirmative-action/struggles-of-obtaining-caste-certificates-reflections-on-the-law-of-gujarat

TooBig, I understand your dislike of the caste system, it’s an awful thing. But OP’s point is that, if a government wants people to stop obeying a set of unfair rules set up by people in power to oppress another set of people, the government can actually pass laws, and enforce them.

Yes, there will be resistance by the oppressors — high-caste Indians there, male sex fetishists and misogynists here. But a government that’s determined to end this oppression will not be intimidated by that, especially when a majority of the population opposes the oppression.

The Caste system and its victims have nothing to do with Self ID, or the trans shitshow in the UK. IMO conflating them is the ultimate in minimising women's fundamental rights.

I didnt do that. The OP did. Others agreed with her that somehow the Indian Caste system is better than what women have now, in the UK.

It really isn't.

This would happen with or without the caste certificates, just as Wayne Couzins abused his police powers to rape and murder Sara Everard without checking her birth certificate first.

The whole of Indian society has caste baked into it. The Indian govt cannot abolish it by fiat.

You have mistaken PPs' recognition that the caste system exists for approval of its existence. No one is approving of it. We are approving of how the Indian govt is refusing to let Brahmins pretend to be Dalits to steal their affirmative action places.

The OP did. Others agreed with her that somehow the Indian Caste system is better than what women have now, in the UK.

Neither the OP nor anyone else has endorsed the caste system. Read the words that are actually there, not the ones that you think are there.

Fair enough if I've got it wrong.

What was the OP's point about the Caste system and what is happening in the UK?

What is it about the Indian Caste system that you want to see in the UK?

TooBig - I've obviously offended you by mentioning the caste system. I came across that piece of legal advice published by a firm of lawyers in India by chance, and it struck me that the Indian Government is putting effort into making caste something that is evidenced by a document created by civil servants who don't just accept a person's declaration that they are of a particular caste, but look for evidence. And that there is some enforcement by way of criminal prosecution when people pretend they are a caste they are not, for profit. Whereas we have a situation in the UK where men can pretend they are women, for personal profit as well as for other nefarious reasons (eg access to women and children in a state of undress), and the Government has refused requests made in parliament for just one piece of documentation to state the sex of a person accurately. Every official document - passport, driving licence, birth certificate - can be changed to the opposite sex at the whim of the individual. This makes it much more difficult for us to make progress with stopping men from, for example, claiming opportunities reserved for women. I did not intend this as any other comment on the caste system. This thread is about trans issues in the UK and the UK government. Please start your own thread about the caste system and its impact on women and children - I would very much like to learn more about it from you and others.

You didn't offend me @Tadpolesinponds.

I can see now that you are naive of the Caste system. It doesn't protect oppressed people. It protects wealthy, powerful men.

The Indian government's enforcement of Caste system is the antithesis of femism.

I did not intend this as any other comment on the caste system. This thread is about trans issues in the UK and the UK government.

The title of your thread is Can I change my Caste? Your OP is about the Indian government's enforcement of Caste. Why did you post it if you didn't want to comment on the Caste system in India?

The OP's point is that govts can and do refuse to accept self-declaration about immutable characteristics. Caste, in the Indian context, is effectively an immutable characteristic. Govts can and do refuse to falsify legal documentation.

Indian caste is a striking example of an immutable characteristic that is invisible and can only be proved conclusively by examining someone's parentage (which doesn't in any way stop it from being used to discriminate), yet the Indian govt is determined to prevent people from falsifying it for gain and applies considerable due diligence prior to issuing a certificate.

By contrast, the British govt throws its hands up in the air and says "it's too hard" when asked to refuse to falsify sex. The Indian caste certificate example proves that the British govt is lying when it claims that it can't record sex honestly.

Caste discrimination is a problem in the UK too.

https://www.dsnuk.org/caste-in-the-uk/

The Indian govt doesn't enforce the caste system in a way that hurts people. The whole of Indian society does that, with or without the certificates, as demonstrated by the experience of Dalits working in the US. The whole of Indian society includes corrupt police officers and others who abuse the power they have from their jobs. The certificates are to gatekeep access to affirmative action measures intended to aid the Dalits.

It's akin to Wayne Couzins not needing to check Sara Everard's birth certificate prior to abducting her, but a bursary application for women asking for State-issued proof of being female.

@Tadpolesinponds I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make

However, I do feel that it was incredibly ill advised to make this sort of comparison, if that's what it is.

Actually, what the hell is it?!

I bet that if a university in the UK set up a bursary for British-born Indians of the Dalit caste, within about 30 seconds a Brahmin would lie on the form to apply for it. India's certificates stop that.

I honestly don't think I can explain it any more clearly than I have done. Other people appear to have understood what I meant. Perhaps because they follow the trans "debate", which is what my post was about, and which is what this part of Mumsnet is for. If you want to discuss caste, and not trans issues, I can only suggest that you start a thread about caste. As I've said, I would be very interested to hear what you have to say about caste on a thread which is about caste.

You are so completely misunderstanding the point that I give up

I’m sure you’re familiar with the concept of an analogy @TooBigForMyBoots

Thank you @EmeraldRoulette.

You've articulated it better than me. I can't see how the Caste system is beneficial to feminism and women's rights in any way.

And @Tadpolesinponds still doesn't get it

No @Tadpolesinponds I don't want to talk about caste. I'm extremely familiar with the issues discussed on this board.

I still have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

OP, I think most people understand your point in contrasting the Indian government’s efforts to protect the Dalits with the UK government’s efforts to avoid protecting women.

Your analogy is clear, especially in contrasting the two government’s attitudes to oppressors self-IDing as oppressed, which although illegal in both countries is widespread and accepted over here.

It might actually be helpful if people could self identify for ethnicity. If for instance you were of mixed race it might be helpful to declare which one you thought was more important in your life. You’d only be able to do it once though. No switching about as circumstances change.

Were you using victims of the Caste system to validate(?) something , or were you looking UK feminist approval for the extremely woman damaging Caste system?

Yep.

...the Indian government’s efforts to protect the Dalits...

You're taking the piss now. Look at the reality of being a Dalit woman and tell me that's any way comparable to anything happening in the UK.

Dalit women are raped and murdered with impunity in India. Those who speak out on their behalf are beaten and murdered.

Because of the Caste system. Because their government imposes on them an inescapable label. Because they are women.

Their suffering has absolutely nothing to do with trans shit in the UK.