Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we extremist and fanatical?

598 replies

RogueFemale · 19/12/2025 20:06

We, as in gender critical/sex realist women.

I saw an old schoolfriend today, to exchange Christmas gifts over tea and biscuits. She's highly educated and intelligent, v. firmly feminist (in the sense of anti-patriarchy, and wanting women to use Ms not Miss or Mrs). Has travelled widely, knows a lot about other cultures etc.

Politics came up and I mentioned Phillipson blocking the ECHR guidance, and how I wasn't happy about it.

Turns out she thinks my gender critical views are extremist and fanatical. Actual words. I knew already she was inclined to the 'be kind' end of the spectrum, and that we disagreed, but this was new - that I'm an extremist.

That I was being unkind and TiM had a right to exist (I said of course they do, but...). That I should keep my views to myself, if I didn't want to be regarded as a nasty person, essentially.

I said, 'you don't understand'. She was having none of it, said she understands very well, and how there's been gender fluidity since time began. (And these poor TiM have nowhere to pee if they can't go in the ladies, as they'll get abused if they go in the mens).

But she really doesn't understand what is happening now.

I tried to tell her about autogynophilia, about how TiM have been attacking women who protest, the pattern these men have of abuse convictions, same as all men, etc. I said I could send her stuff to prove my points, she said, please don't.

Just a bit depressed to be told by an old friend that I'm a fanatical extremist weirdo, really.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
ArabellaSaurus · 20/12/2025 09:40

OnAShooglyPeg · 20/12/2025 08:46

And @DontGoJasonWaterfalls have it nailed.

This board is not representative of the general public, even those of the public whom we think might be more inclined to be aware of the issues.

I was at the MIL's last weekend and the subject came up. She is an old school lefty feminist: went on CND rallies, kept her named when she married, refused to give her daughter toy irons and cookers, has her own money and independence in marriage, and is politically engaged.

On paper, she should have peaked a long time ago. She is aware of the Peggie Vs NHS Fife case and agrees with Sandie, and being in Scotland I think everyone is aware of Isla Bryson. But she isn't aware of Imane Khelif or Caster Semenya, arguing that they are women.

I think the last few weeks, with the latest tribunal decisions and the EHRC pushback, have shown that there's still a long way to go. What might seem perfectly obvious to people here hasn't filtered out to the masses yet.

If you're just casually acquainted with some issues and maybe havent seen the intersecting points its perfectly possible to hold contradictory beliefs at the same time.

The common denominator, I'd say, is biological sex, and the attempts to claim that sex is not 'binary' and immutable.

This allows for both 'gender' theories that lead to Isla Bryson in Cornton Vale, and Dr Upton in the nurses' changing room, and Semenya's 5ARD DSD (born with a small penis) in women's sport.

ArabellaSaurus · 20/12/2025 09:45

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 07:42

I don't think Mumsnet is a good representation of gender critical people (in the same way that Reddit / other "chronically online" spaces are a good representation of trans people).

Echo chambers with lots of attempts at edginess, clamouring for popularity and to say the funniest, edgiest thing, conversations that sometimes descend into hysteria from an outside view, outright refusal to consider the "other side" as people, never mind people with valid reasons to feel the way they do, dehumanising language... it's here and it's in online trans spaces.

It's not something I ever notice in real life, from people who I know are gender critical or trans.

You were doing well, until the 'hysteria' let your slip show.

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:51

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/12/2025 08:31

Ah the bananarama arguments beloved of employment tribunals

it's not what we say i e that men shouldn't be in women's spaces, it's how we say it ie not nicely and kindly enough

I mean, case in point. I could have posted my post in a trans friendly space and someone would have replied your exact response, but swap out "men shouldn't be in women's spaces" for "trans women are women".

Like it or not, these spaces are echo chambers and no-one benefits, it's just a race to the bottom to be the most cutting / insulting / funny in a space full of people who already agree with you.

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:52

ArabellaSaurus · 20/12/2025 09:45

You were doing well, until the 'hysteria' let your slip show.

What slip? Both sides behave in a way I'd describe as hysterical at times, I stand by that.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 20/12/2025 09:54

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:52

What slip? Both sides behave in a way I'd describe as hysterical at times, I stand by that.

You got any examples?

Lovelyview · 20/12/2025 10:01

ArabellaSaurus · 20/12/2025 09:32

Yes, indeed.

When the NHS, the government, the media are all chanting the same thought terminating cliches, its incredibly difficult to question them.

Emperor's new clothes situation.

I agree. It really does something to your brain to realise the news sources you have trusted for 30 years (in my case) were prepared to unquestioningly lie about this subject over and over again. I genuinely felt like my brain was being taken apart and put back differently. Your friend is not prepared to face that yet op.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/12/2025 10:03

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 00:10

It’s nothing feminist about this forum. It’s not welcome to women unless you are have the exact same opinions as everyone else you will be bullied out of here.

If you have only recently found your way here then what you will be unaware of is that for years it was the only place where people who were rejecting of trans ideology could meet and discuss the issues that were of fundamental importance to them. There was still no media coverage, and the Labour party were still chanting "No debate".

The board was even further hived off from the main Feminism board at the request of those that didn't want to discuss the issue and wanted a separate thread for other feminist chat. So here we are, and here you are.

What we have is is a most valuable and valued resource for many, and has been for many years. It is not meant as a free for all, even though most chat or even trolling is tolerated and engaged with. If you don't like its specificity there is no compulsion to read or to engage. You are not going to convince anyone of the worthiness or true value of trans ideology, gender identity theory or child transition.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/12/2025 10:07

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:51

I mean, case in point. I could have posted my post in a trans friendly space and someone would have replied your exact response, but swap out "men shouldn't be in women's spaces" for "trans women are women".

Like it or not, these spaces are echo chambers and no-one benefits, it's just a race to the bottom to be the most cutting / insulting / funny in a space full of people who already agree with you.

Except trans women are biological men so should not be in women's spaces as they are "for women"

but yeh sure both sides eh 🙄

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:12

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/12/2025 10:03

If you have only recently found your way here then what you will be unaware of is that for years it was the only place where people who were rejecting of trans ideology could meet and discuss the issues that were of fundamental importance to them. There was still no media coverage, and the Labour party were still chanting "No debate".

The board was even further hived off from the main Feminism board at the request of those that didn't want to discuss the issue and wanted a separate thread for other feminist chat. So here we are, and here you are.

What we have is is a most valuable and valued resource for many, and has been for many years. It is not meant as a free for all, even though most chat or even trolling is tolerated and engaged with. If you don't like its specificity there is no compulsion to read or to engage. You are not going to convince anyone of the worthiness or true value of trans ideology, gender identity theory or child transition.

Edited

I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I dipped in with a few things I was questioning a while back and was told to give my little head a wobble and worse. The terminology used to put me down was similar to what women usually experience from misogynistic men and not expected on a feminist forum. I have since lurked here a bit and seen other experience the same. I consider myself a feminist, but not all feminists always think exactly the same way.

Lovelyview · 20/12/2025 10:13

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:51

I mean, case in point. I could have posted my post in a trans friendly space and someone would have replied your exact response, but swap out "men shouldn't be in women's spaces" for "trans women are women".

Like it or not, these spaces are echo chambers and no-one benefits, it's just a race to the bottom to be the most cutting / insulting / funny in a space full of people who already agree with you.

You're not going to get banned from this board for saying transwomen are women. You are going to get debated. Yes, there will be mockery. If I go on trans reddit and say transwomen are men I get banned. That's the difference.

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 10:14

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/12/2025 10:07

Except trans women are biological men so should not be in women's spaces as they are "for women"

but yeh sure both sides eh 🙄

And TRAs believe that trans women are women and do not recognise them as biological men, so they would argue "trans women are women" with the exact same amount of passion and belief that you are arguing that they don't belong in women's spaces.

This is the issue; both sides believe they hold the only valid belief and see the other side as nefarious moustache-twirling villains with hidden agendas - from the posts on here you'd think that everyone who supports trans rights does so because they want women to feel uncomfortable and want them to be unsafe; from the posts on Reddit etc you'd think every gender critical person is privileged and wants to "gatekeep womanhood" because it makes them feel superior. Neither view is accurate - there are people with completely valid, personal reasons to hold their beliefs. You may not like it, you may say "oh here we go, both sides 🙄" but both sides have to co-exist, there will always be gender critical people and there will always be trans rights activists and just existing in these echo chambers helps no one.

ProfessorBinturong · 20/12/2025 10:15

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:51

I mean, case in point. I could have posted my post in a trans friendly space and someone would have replied your exact response, but swap out "men shouldn't be in women's spaces" for "trans women are women".

Like it or not, these spaces are echo chambers and no-one benefits, it's just a race to the bottom to be the most cutting / insulting / funny in a space full of people who already agree with you.

Exact same response? Please do try the experiment and report back.

Shedmistress · 20/12/2025 10:15

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:12

I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I dipped in with a few things I was questioning a while back and was told to give my little head a wobble and worse. The terminology used to put me down was similar to what women usually experience from misogynistic men and not expected on a feminist forum. I have since lurked here a bit and seen other experience the same. I consider myself a feminist, but not all feminists always think exactly the same way.

This forum is full of anyone who wants to join. It isn't a members club. In fact, many people on here are not feminist in the slightest.

But if you were told to 'give your head a wobble', that's quite mild compared to the rape and death threats, the doxxing, the reporting and all the other shite that women who know there are 2 sexes get. So if being told to 'give your head a wobble' is the worst you have had, I'd count yourself very, very lucky.

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 10:16

Lovelyview · 20/12/2025 10:13

You're not going to get banned from this board for saying transwomen are women. You are going to get debated. Yes, there will be mockery. If I go on trans reddit and say transwomen are men I get banned. That's the difference.

Different moderation policies 🤷‍♀️ Mumsnet could turn around and ban anyone who says trans women are women, they just choose not to. The mods on trans Reddit have chosen to ban gender critical voices.

The different moderation policies doesn't change the fact that both spaces are echo chambers; whether it's enforced through moderation or ridicule.

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:18

Shedmistress · 20/12/2025 10:15

This forum is full of anyone who wants to join. It isn't a members club. In fact, many people on here are not feminist in the slightest.

But if you were told to 'give your head a wobble', that's quite mild compared to the rape and death threats, the doxxing, the reporting and all the other shite that women who know there are 2 sexes get. So if being told to 'give your head a wobble' is the worst you have had, I'd count yourself very, very lucky.

I am also a woman who knows there are 2 sexes. I don’t want to be on a forum where people with slightly different views are constantly told they are thick and to wobble their head. Maybe some people have come here to learn. It’s not a friendly open minded place, but I understand it’s not meant to be.

Seethlaw · 20/12/2025 10:19

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 09:51

I mean, case in point. I could have posted my post in a trans friendly space and someone would have replied your exact response, but swap out "men shouldn't be in women's spaces" for "trans women are women".

Like it or not, these spaces are echo chambers and no-one benefits, it's just a race to the bottom to be the most cutting / insulting / funny in a space full of people who already agree with you.

Like it or not, these spaces are echo chambers and no-one benefits

How can you say that noone benefits, when loads of people, including myself, have testified, in this thread or others, that it was the discussions here which helped them understand the GC position, and decide for themselves whether they agreed with it or not?

Without MN, I would still be in the dark, deeply unhappy with the trans dogma, but unable to figure out what I really feel or believe. I'm unaware of anywhere else on the internet where the GC points are made so freely and openly. Where else would you suggest anyone go to educate oneself on those specific matters?

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:20

Lovelyview · 20/12/2025 10:13

You're not going to get banned from this board for saying transwomen are women. You are going to get debated. Yes, there will be mockery. If I go on trans reddit and say transwomen are men I get banned. That's the difference.

I never said trans women are women. It’s not debate, it’s full of mockery and calling others thick. It’s not a feminist board, it’s one version of feminism.

Shedmistress · 20/12/2025 10:21

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:18

I am also a woman who knows there are 2 sexes. I don’t want to be on a forum where people with slightly different views are constantly told they are thick and to wobble their head. Maybe some people have come here to learn. It’s not a friendly open minded place, but I understand it’s not meant to be.

I don't understand what the issue is. If you don't want to be on a forum where people tell you you are thick, and you say people have called you thick, then why are you here?

Eiher you don't want to be here or you do. Make your mind up. Enough of the endless 'it's a echo chamber' when all some people do on here is complain rather than make their point that they apparently are not able to make. If you have a point to make, just make it. But be prepared to be challenged.

Shedmistress · 20/12/2025 10:23

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:20

I never said trans women are women. It’s not debate, it’s full of mockery and calling others thick. It’s not a feminist board, it’s one version of feminism.

It isn't a feminist board. It is a board where one can discuss issues pertaining to sex and gender in a feminist context and it includes many people who hate women. And many men.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 20/12/2025 10:23

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 10:16

Different moderation policies 🤷‍♀️ Mumsnet could turn around and ban anyone who says trans women are women, they just choose not to. The mods on trans Reddit have chosen to ban gender critical voices.

The different moderation policies doesn't change the fact that both spaces are echo chambers; whether it's enforced through moderation or ridicule.

So no examples.

It’s like saying ‘flat earthers believe the earth is flat’. That’s fine, believe it, discuss why you think that, but it’s not. Then you go onto a space forum (who don’t ban people for saying that it’s flat whereas flat earthers ban people for saying it’s round) spouting that it’s flat and you get all surprised when you get various examples/backed up arguments etc that it is round, and you run off crying ‘echo chamber’ because low and behold, the majority of posters of said board know and agree that the earth, is indeed, round. And not flat.

Edited for overuse of the word indeed!

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:24

Shedmistress · 20/12/2025 10:21

I don't understand what the issue is. If you don't want to be on a forum where people tell you you are thick, and you say people have called you thick, then why are you here?

Eiher you don't want to be here or you do. Make your mind up. Enough of the endless 'it's a echo chamber' when all some people do on here is complain rather than make their point that they apparently are not able to make. If you have a point to make, just make it. But be prepared to be challenged.

It’s the only forum on MN where personal insults and attacks are not moderated. It’s quite sad that it’s the feminist forum where this is happening. If you call people thick and worse on other forums, your post will be deleted.

Shedmistress · 20/12/2025 10:26

Ccaatt · 20/12/2025 10:24

It’s the only forum on MN where personal insults and attacks are not moderated. It’s quite sad that it’s the feminist forum where this is happening. If you call people thick and worse on other forums, your post will be deleted.

Are you joking right now? it is the most moderated forum probably on the internet.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 20/12/2025 10:27

..... thinking that women need equal consideration to men, equal provision for accessibility, and that a woman should not have to predicate her reality around what a man tells her is happening in his head is.... extremist and fanatical.

...oooookay.

Your friend has problems, OP. Many women do. But you don't have to rescue her, her misogyny is her issue. Sadly it's going to catch up with her eventually.

OnAShooglyPeg · 20/12/2025 10:29

ArabellaSaurus · 20/12/2025 09:45

You were doing well, until the 'hysteria' let your slip show.

I'd probably say frenzy state, more than hysteria. Sometimes it can be a bit of a braying mob, and it's genuinely uncomfortable to read. I don't think there's anything wrong in pointing it out, and the whataboutery put forward by others really doesn't make it better.

I think it was in one of the tribunal threads, but I'd need to go back and look. There was some sort of assumption made that a man (either barrister or judge) had said/done something, but it was actually a woman. Rather than checking, posters jumped to join in with the outrage. Similarly, there were a few joke 'correction' letters mocked up following the Peggie judgement. One of them was the written version of a Rickroll. Rather than read the letter, some assumed it was genuine and jumped on it.

DontGoJasonWaterfalls · 20/12/2025 10:30

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 20/12/2025 10:23

So no examples.

It’s like saying ‘flat earthers believe the earth is flat’. That’s fine, believe it, discuss why you think that, but it’s not. Then you go onto a space forum (who don’t ban people for saying that it’s flat whereas flat earthers ban people for saying it’s round) spouting that it’s flat and you get all surprised when you get various examples/backed up arguments etc that it is round, and you run off crying ‘echo chamber’ because low and behold, the majority of posters of said board know and agree that the earth, is indeed, round. And not flat.

Edited for overuse of the word indeed!

Edited

I'm not going to waste my time finding examples when posters will just say "oh but at least they know what a woman is!" and whatever.

As far as TRAs are concerned, Mumsnetters are the flat earthers. Everything you're saying can be applied in reverse.

Swipe left for the next trending thread