Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we extremist and fanatical?

598 replies

RogueFemale · 19/12/2025 20:06

We, as in gender critical/sex realist women.

I saw an old schoolfriend today, to exchange Christmas gifts over tea and biscuits. She's highly educated and intelligent, v. firmly feminist (in the sense of anti-patriarchy, and wanting women to use Ms not Miss or Mrs). Has travelled widely, knows a lot about other cultures etc.

Politics came up and I mentioned Phillipson blocking the ECHR guidance, and how I wasn't happy about it.

Turns out she thinks my gender critical views are extremist and fanatical. Actual words. I knew already she was inclined to the 'be kind' end of the spectrum, and that we disagreed, but this was new - that I'm an extremist.

That I was being unkind and TiM had a right to exist (I said of course they do, but...). That I should keep my views to myself, if I didn't want to be regarded as a nasty person, essentially.

I said, 'you don't understand'. She was having none of it, said she understands very well, and how there's been gender fluidity since time began. (And these poor TiM have nowhere to pee if they can't go in the ladies, as they'll get abused if they go in the mens).

But she really doesn't understand what is happening now.

I tried to tell her about autogynophilia, about how TiM have been attacking women who protest, the pattern these men have of abuse convictions, same as all men, etc. I said I could send her stuff to prove my points, she said, please don't.

Just a bit depressed to be told by an old friend that I'm a fanatical extremist weirdo, really.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
RaininSummer · 28/12/2025 18:19

She doesn't sound all that intelligent.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 18:25

I am not sure that your friend actually read it.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 28/12/2025 18:34

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 18:15

I'm thinking of sending her a copy of The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht. Because it explains much better than I ever could. What do you all think?

Even if she only reads a bit, it's so clearly not written by 'extremists'. Also the cover alone should indicate that this is about women's rights - which she claims to care strongly about.

Only if you are prepared to read whatever whingy, science-denying, 'what about the poor men' book she sends you in return🙄

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 28/12/2025 18:41

It's a bit difficult to believe in women's rights when you also believe that it's right that some women must be excluded (unlucky ones due to their trauma, their history, their culture, their faith, the burdens that fall on women through being biologically women) from their one and only space so that these men can have their preferred choice of all the spaces for their self expression and freedom of inner self.

And that women should have to consent to undressing in the presence of any man who invokes the privilege as the price of employment, access to spaces, services and resources, because the man has a right of use of her body. And let's face it, no other part of her is of any interest to him. Not who she is, what she thinks, how she feels, her own identity and inner life - his inner life and self expression and 'authenticity' is crucial, hers is nothing. If she mentions it at all she is misbehaving, and she should learn to be inauthentically outwardly submissive to him to be 'good'.

This would fuck with anyone's head. It's no wonder believers get angry and resist the heresy; it makes no sense. It doesn't hold together. It isn't right. It is fundamentally based on men mattering in ways that women don't, and women owing a duty of labour to these men because they are men. It involves enormous sexism. The greatest new act of patriarchy is men being able to force women to pretend like this.

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 18:46

FallenSloppyDead2 · 28/12/2025 18:34

Only if you are prepared to read whatever whingy, science-denying, 'what about the poor men' book she sends you in return🙄

I would if she did (and does such a book exist?) but I would say, you first, read TWWWW first.

OP posts:
FallenSloppyDead2 · 28/12/2025 19:02

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 18:46

I would if she did (and does such a book exist?) but I would say, you first, read TWWWW first.

Well, if you really think there is a chance that she will read it, then I say go for it.

GCScot · 28/12/2025 19:19

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 18:15

I'm thinking of sending her a copy of The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht. Because it explains much better than I ever could. What do you all think?

Even if she only reads a bit, it's so clearly not written by 'extremists'. Also the cover alone should indicate that this is about women's rights - which she claims to care strongly about.

Or what about 'Trans' by Helen Joyce? I think it sets out the issues very articulately and compassionately.

She may not be able to give any gender critical book a fair reading though

ArabellaSaurus · 28/12/2025 19:38

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 18:46

I would if she did (and does such a book exist?) but I would say, you first, read TWWWW first.

There's 'Gender is fluid' or something similar from Sally Hines. And maybe Juno Dawson or Shon Faye.

I have to be honest, I cannot be arsed reading any of them.

ArabellaSaurus · 28/12/2025 19:40

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 18:15

I'm thinking of sending her a copy of The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht. Because it explains much better than I ever could. What do you all think?

Even if she only reads a bit, it's so clearly not written by 'extremists'. Also the cover alone should indicate that this is about women's rights - which she claims to care strongly about.

In all honesty, I think that would be pointless.

If someone is determined to believe something, there's not much point in trying to dissuade them.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 28/12/2025 19:49

How about 'Time to Think', Hannah Barnes? I'm making a fair bit of progress with friends by coming at the issue from a child safeguarding angle.

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 20:15

GCScot · 28/12/2025 19:19

Or what about 'Trans' by Helen Joyce? I think it sets out the issues very articulately and compassionately.

She may not be able to give any gender critical book a fair reading though

Thanks @GCScot I was thinking TWWWW because it's not so explicitly about trans, at least when you look at the cover, which says it's about 'women's rights' (supposedly a subject my friend is keen on). Also, there are multiple women contributors, so harder for my friend to dismiss it with, well, that's just what one woman thinks?

OP posts:
RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 20:19

ArabellaSaurus · 28/12/2025 19:40

In all honesty, I think that would be pointless.

If someone is determined to believe something, there's not much point in trying to dissuade them.

I feel I should at least try, it might salvage the friendship if she actually reads it.

OP posts:
RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 20:30

FallenSloppyDead2 · 28/12/2025 19:49

How about 'Time to Think', Hannah Barnes? I'm making a fair bit of progress with friends by coming at the issue from a child safeguarding angle.

Thanks @FallenSloppyDead2 but I think it'd be too 'niche' as a first encounter with the GC side of things and friend is also childless.

OP posts:
GCScot · 28/12/2025 21:20

@RogueFemale , I think a similar conversation may be looming for me (with a work colleague)

I'm wondering whether the best approach might be to emphasise your good intentions? Along the lines of - this is an issue that I've thought about a lot which is important to me. We may think differently on this matter but neither of us is stupid or evil. We may just have to agree to disagree.

Supposedly one of the biggest skills in negotiation is giving your opponent the opportunity to back down without losing face. If you can convince her that you have good intentions then even if she dismisses your concerns now, it may leave open a small door in her mind for doubts to creep in at a future date.

But yes you are not unreasonable to feel upset that she has treated you this way

Theeyeballsinthesky · 28/12/2025 21:25

ArabellaSaurus · 28/12/2025 19:40

In all honesty, I think that would be pointless.

If someone is determined to believe something, there's not much point in trying to dissuade them.

This! She didn't reason herself into her position, so she can't be reasoned out if it

Theeyeballsinthesky · 28/12/2025 21:28

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 20:30

Thanks @FallenSloppyDead2 but I think it'd be too 'niche' as a first encounter with the GC side of things and friend is also childless.

I'm childless but I get the child safeguarding angle because to me it's absolutely flaming obvious 🤷🏻‍♀️ but then I don't think men are magically women if they say they are

ArabellaSaurus · 28/12/2025 23:18

RogueFemale · 28/12/2025 20:15

Thanks @GCScot I was thinking TWWWW because it's not so explicitly about trans, at least when you look at the cover, which says it's about 'women's rights' (supposedly a subject my friend is keen on). Also, there are multiple women contributors, so harder for my friend to dismiss it with, well, that's just what one woman thinks?

Well, there's a few of those. Victoria Smith's 'Hags' may be good for an academic, or Susannah Rustin's 'Sexed'. Or Holly Lawford-Smith's 'Gender Critical feminism'.

However, I just think that she's done the equivalent of declaring you an apostate, and you sending any book to her would be the equivalent of sending a book on evolution to a creationist.

It's just as likely to entrench her position. She's thinking tribally, not logically.

RogueFemale · 29/12/2025 11:59

ArabellaSaurus · 28/12/2025 23:18

Well, there's a few of those. Victoria Smith's 'Hags' may be good for an academic, or Susannah Rustin's 'Sexed'. Or Holly Lawford-Smith's 'Gender Critical feminism'.

However, I just think that she's done the equivalent of declaring you an apostate, and you sending any book to her would be the equivalent of sending a book on evolution to a creationist.

It's just as likely to entrench her position. She's thinking tribally, not logically.

Yes, I can hear her saying she's far too busy to read such books, etc, but then I could say, well if you won't listen to the other side of the argument, I don't think it's fair to call me an extremist, do you?

My other idea, because she tends to wear big t-shirts, is to get her an Adult Human Female t-shirt for her birthday. And since she hasn't read up on sex realism, she won't know what it means, haha.

OP posts:
Wetoldyousaurus · 29/12/2025 18:04

I was wondering if maybe a GC book or printed, well reputed essay that is related to her ‘field of expertise’ if such a thing were to exist. Even if there’s just a very tenuous link. TRA is so far reaching that I find most things are touched by it eventually, detrimentally for women. If she could see that even her safe little world and world view are impacted materially by this, there might be a crack where the light could get in.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 29/12/2025 18:34

RogueFemale · 29/12/2025 11:59

Yes, I can hear her saying she's far too busy to read such books, etc, but then I could say, well if you won't listen to the other side of the argument, I don't think it's fair to call me an extremist, do you?

My other idea, because she tends to wear big t-shirts, is to get her an Adult Human Female t-shirt for her birthday. And since she hasn't read up on sex realism, she won't know what it means, haha.

Cut to the chase and send her a link to transcrimeuk

Waitwhat23 · 29/12/2025 21:28

Someone on Bluesky has posted a photo of themselves burning a copy of TWWW.

But, we're the extremists, right? (Heavy on the sarcasm for the screenshotters btw)

ScrollingLeaves · 30/12/2025 10:08

What is TWWW?

Waitwhat23 · 30/12/2025 10:12

The book The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht.

And I've just realised that my post above missed out a W - it should read TWWWW.

ArabellaSaurus · 30/12/2025 20:30

Waitwhat23 · 29/12/2025 21:28

Someone on Bluesky has posted a photo of themselves burning a copy of TWWW.

But, we're the extremists, right? (Heavy on the sarcasm for the screenshotters btw)

Oh they do love a righteous book burning.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 30/12/2025 22:27

ArabellaSaurus · 30/12/2025 20:30

Oh they do love a righteous book burning.

Well, as JKR pointed out, you have to buy the book first before you burn it, so Susan Dalgety et al have the last laugh

Swipe left for the next trending thread