Are we extremist and fanatical?

[RogueFemale]

We, as in gender critical/sex realist women.

I saw an old schoolfriend today, to exchange Christmas gifts over tea and biscuits. She's highly educated and intelligent, v. firmly feminist (in the sense of anti-patriarchy, and wanting women to use Ms not Miss or Mrs). Has travelled widely, knows a lot about other cultures etc.

Politics came up and I mentioned Phillipson blocking the ECHR guidance, and how I wasn't happy about it.

Turns out she thinks my gender critical views are extremist and fanatical. Actual words. I knew already she was inclined to the 'be kind' end of the spectrum, and that we disagreed, but this was new - that I'm an extremist.

That I was being unkind and TiM had a right to exist (I said of course they do, but...). That I should keep my views to myself, if I didn't want to be regarded as a nasty person, essentially.

I said, 'you don't understand'. She was having none of it, said she understands very well, and how there's been gender fluidity since time began. (And these poor TiM have nowhere to pee if they can't go in the ladies, as they'll get abused if they go in the mens).

But she really doesn't understand what is happening now.

I tried to tell her about autogynophilia, about how TiM have been attacking women who protest, the pattern these men have of abuse convictions, same as all men, etc. I said I could send her stuff to prove my points, she said, please don't.

Just a bit depressed to be told by an old friend that I'm a fanatical extremist weirdo, really.

The reason gender ideology is such a touchy subject is that it is the most fragile concept and can’t take any debate, it just shatters. Unlike most other topics except maybe religion, you can usually have a bit of light hearted back and forth over it without any hurt feelings. I wonder if we’re used to treating religious beliefs with a featherlight touch to keep the peace, and that has carried over to gender woo? Perhaps your friend feels saying TWAM is like criticising Islam or Judaism: dangerous waters.

I think for a lot of people it's still about not really believing what is happening or not wanting to think logically. A case in point is that in my daughter's sports club, a trans woman (who had previously changed with the males with no problems) decided that he now wanted to change with the girls. They didn't want to. When I have asked those who say TWAW what should happen, they often twist themselves into knots rather than say the girls have no right to privacy. These people often just don't want to THINK about the real world consequences of their attitudes.

Another example, a friend is very clear on not allowing her teenage daughters to go to sleepovers with boys but she will allow them to go to sleepovers with a trans boy. Fine except she told me that she thinks of trans boys/men as male. It doesn't make sense but I don't think she actually wants to think it through.

Sometimes the more intelligent a person is the more crazy shit they are open to accepting because they come at it from an intellectual/philosophical perspective. Sometimes it is good old fashioned common sense and gut feeling that stops shit happening. It is very easy to have an intellectual idea about inclusivity whereas having to share a changing room with a bloke getting turned on by getting his dick out in front of a load of women is a bit easier to make it clear that the answer is 'no, no, no'. I would bin your friend off tbh. She sounds extremely rude and nasty to you and that is what i would stay focused on.

She thinks trans is the same as gender fluidity? She’s thick. She thinks she can overrule you with what she perceives as a moral high ground, she not Your friend.

I’m afraid this is very common in academia - groupthink is extremely powerful. Also, assuming you are not an academic, please don’t make the mistake of assuming that academics are quite as intelligent as they ‘present’. There is often a deep vein of conformity amongst academics when it comes to being ‘on the right side of history’ and some deep foolishness. Academics, like doctors and lawyers, are prone to being captured by ideology. I hasten to add, I’m an academic myself so speaking from some familiarity.

As a feminist forum, the dominant view is the one which is actually compatible with feminism.

Try mentioning this view on the likes of Reddit, or most websites, and it's an instant ban and your posts expunged from the record. No debate. That's what an echo chamber looks like.

Perhaps your friend feels saying TWAM is like criticising Islam or Judaism: dangerous waters.

I think this is the case for many people.

The idea that TWAW is a main tenet of the belief that everyone has a gender identity. Saying TWAM is on par with saying that "god doesn't exist" or "Allah doesn't exist". That's before you get into the details of whether or not burkas are reasonable or any other discussion about religion.

The problem with gender identity belief is that saying "I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity" should be a completely palatable thing to say. We can say "I don't believe in god" or "I don't believe in Allah" without any issues. Muslims don't expect every woman in the UK to wear a burka because there's an unspoken acceptance that it's OK for some people not to share the same core belief (in Allah) as you do, so it would be unreasonable to force them to follow any of its practices. Obviously there are some Muslims who do think it should be enforced, just as it is in Afghanistan, but that's nowhere near to ever being the majority view in the UK. Also, not every Muslim supports wearing burkas.

Instead, with gender identity belief we're all forced and coerced into either actively embracing and following all of its practices or being declared bigots. Given people lose their jobs over this, I can understand the reluctance to be seen as a heretic. But unfortunately this reluctance does stifle critical thinking.

If pushed, most people would probably say that TW don't belong in women's sports, just as most people would probably say that women shouldn't be forced to wear burkas. Even then, I think many of those people wouldn't want to say TWAM (or Allah doesn't exist), even if they did believe that. So yes, for many people it's dangerous waters.

No they don't 😆

I'm quite amused that the people on this board, who include several biologists and adjacent scientists are told all of you - have a read
What the fuck do you think I did all these years in university and in 30+ years as a research scientist? Sex is a spectrum is basically 21st centuries flat earthisms.

I think saying TWAM is often as incendiary as saying Mohammed was just an ordinary man. I feel uncomfortable even typing that as a comparison!!

I don't think Mumsnet is a good representation of gender critical people (in the same way that Reddit / other "chronically online" spaces are a good representation of trans people).

Echo chambers with lots of attempts at edginess, clamouring for popularity and to say the funniest, edgiest thing, conversations that sometimes descend into hysteria from an outside view, outright refusal to consider the "other side" as people, never mind people with valid reasons to feel the way they do, dehumanising language... it's here and it's in online trans spaces.

It's not something I ever notice in real life, from people who I know are gender critical or trans.

So true of almost all online groups. No one behaves like that in real life, everyone is much more polite and socially cautious. Whether it’s dog haters or your local FB group posting about planning permission or a Harry Styles fan page. Everyone goes a bit nuts online.

If I hadn't discovered this board 9 years ago, I'd probably still be getting all my information from the Guardian and the BBC, and I imagine I'd have reacted just like your friend, op. So I sympathise. I don't think there's any point in trying to change her mind but there's just a chance she'll think about what you've said and come back to you in years to come asking more. This has happened to me.

As for being welcomed, I found this board so intimidating at first, I didn't post for ... I can't remember exactly but about 2 years. It was fine. I sat at the back, so to speak, and I read and I listened and I learned. It's not a luncheon club, it's a place for getting informed and getting things done.

Simply put, we just don't want:
kids sterilised or mutilated and to be allowed to grow up
men in female places and activities.

We know they are human, that's the problem. A male human in the wrong place is still a human. He isn't a ghost, an apparition, a figment of our imagination.

And if anyone has any information to how men magically change into women, we've been asking on here for about a decade for someone to provide it.

I think saying TWAM is often as incendiary as saying Mohammed was just an ordinary man. I feel uncomfortable even typing that as a comparison!!

Yes, exactly. That's even better than my example precisely because it is such an uncomfortable thing to say.

When I talk about gender identity belief IRL (and online) I use Christianity as my comparison because I don't feel as uncomfortable in that territory. And then I feel guilty because that's pretty unfair on Christians.... but the fact remains that it feels like safer territory than other religions when exploring the similarities between my atheism and my lack of belief in the idea that we all have a gendered soul that is separate from our bodies.

I still do check if the person I'm talking to is Christian and I still do give a "trigger warning" that what I'm about to say is for comparative purposes. I say things that are deliberately provocative, after some careful framing of course, like "conception isn't possible without sperm" and "virgins can't give birth" - and then I make the point that thankfully nobody is pushing for children to be taught that this demonstrates that reproduction is "complicated". There's a fair bit more to it but I don't want this to turn into an essay... That's the crux of it though. Thankfully everyone accepts the unspoken truth that Christians believe something that is anti-science and that this is OK because a) it doesn't impact anyone else and b) won't cause that person harm (the harm only comes in at the more extreme end of Christianity e.g. Waco or Jonestown). I don't need to challenge it and it doesn't matter that it apparently only happened once and that it was apparently because of a miracle - I'm happy that 2 billion people around the world believe this and that I am one of the rest that don't. However, if I was being forced to follow the tenets of Christianity and actively demonstrate my adherence to them, such as enforced attendance at church every Sunday, I might feel the need to speak up and say that Jesus was just an ordinary man who was conceived and born in an ordinary way.

The OP's friend is possibly defaulting to the visceral reaction coatsoff presumably felt at writing those words. I think it's human nature to feel it. I might be more comfortable using Christianity as my analogy but that doesn't mean I'm actually feeling comfortable. There are lots of people who genuinely do believe that Jesus is the son of god and there are lots of people who genuinely do believe that we all have a gender identity, so it really is quite similar in many ways.

All of this. The difference in my case is that it was about 3.5 years ago that I had already started to think something didn't quite add up and it was before I found this board. End to end, I was about 8 months into my journey before coming across MN. I was catapulted into the need to dig deeper and understand it all when my daughter asked for puberty blockers.

Ah the bananarama arguments beloved of employment tribunals

it's not what we say i e that men shouldn't be in women's spaces, it's how we say it ie not nicely and kindly enough

No, you are just being very firm and saying " no" to an actual extremist ideology that convinces people that men are women and that children should have their natural puberty blocked if they feel distressed.

Extremists require a very, very firm " No"!

If your friend is in a university she could get cancelled if she doesn’t ‘think’ this way. The Russell Group university near me is absolutely riddled with transgender propaganda under its support for this characteristic and is still a Stonewall champion.

It is the vocal few at universities that give the impression and people have to find a way to tackle it. Most people do not think that sex is a spectrum. I have a close friend with a DSD and they definitely think it’s ridiculous! And most men I know just keep their head down. As in they don’t feel it’s their fight as it’s not their rights being trodden on

And @DontGoJasonWaterfalls have it nailed.

This board is not representative of the general public, even those of the public whom we think might be more inclined to be aware of the issues.

I was at the MIL's last weekend and the subject came up. She is an old school lefty feminist: went on CND rallies, kept her named when she married, refused to give her daughter toy irons and cookers, has her own money and independence in marriage, and is politically engaged.

On paper, she should have peaked a long time ago. She is aware of the Peggie Vs NHS Fife case and agrees with Sandie, and being in Scotland I think everyone is aware of Isla Bryson. But she isn't aware of Imane Khelif or Caster Semenya, arguing that they are women.

I think the last few weeks, with the latest tribunal decisions and the EHRC pushback, have shown that there's still a long way to go. What might seem perfectly obvious to people here hasn't filtered out to the masses yet.

And OP you are deffo not an extra est. I love Mumsnet - these are not hostile boards. They are places that allow discussion

Well she’s wrong and a bit thick. Or at
least wilfully ignorant which amounts to the same thing.

Also op, if your friend is anything like I was, this isn't just about whether or not mammals can change sex. For me, the real headfuck was processing that the Guardian and the BBC and pretty much every institution that was dear to me, was being dishonest. And then inevitably you start to wonder what else they've been lying about.

So yes, your first instinct is to lash out, not at the people responsible but at the person in front of you who's questioning your whole world view.

Yes, indeed.

When the NHS, the government, the media are all chanting the same thought terminating cliches, its incredibly difficult to question them.

Emperor's new clothes situation.