Are we extremist and fanatical?

[RogueFemale]

We, as in gender critical/sex realist women.

I saw an old schoolfriend today, to exchange Christmas gifts over tea and biscuits. She's highly educated and intelligent, v. firmly feminist (in the sense of anti-patriarchy, and wanting women to use Ms not Miss or Mrs). Has travelled widely, knows a lot about other cultures etc.

Politics came up and I mentioned Phillipson blocking the ECHR guidance, and how I wasn't happy about it.

Turns out she thinks my gender critical views are extremist and fanatical. Actual words. I knew already she was inclined to the 'be kind' end of the spectrum, and that we disagreed, but this was new - that I'm an extremist.

That I was being unkind and TiM had a right to exist (I said of course they do, but...). That I should keep my views to myself, if I didn't want to be regarded as a nasty person, essentially.

I said, 'you don't understand'. She was having none of it, said she understands very well, and how there's been gender fluidity since time began. (And these poor TiM have nowhere to pee if they can't go in the ladies, as they'll get abused if they go in the mens).

But she really doesn't understand what is happening now.

I tried to tell her about autogynophilia, about how TiM have been attacking women who protest, the pattern these men have of abuse convictions, same as all men, etc. I said I could send her stuff to prove my points, she said, please don't.

Just a bit depressed to be told by an old friend that I'm a fanatical extremist weirdo, really.

So?

Yes, frenzy state / braying mob is what I was intending rather than hysteria (forgot the sex-based connotations of hysteria; it was intended to mean frenzy/mob mentality as opposed to anything else - apologies on that one!)

Shocked you have no examples. Anyway.

One is fact. The other is belief.

You're illustrating my original point beautifully, so thank you, but whatever 🤣

As far as TRAs are concerned, it's a fact that trans women are women. As far as gender critical people are concerned, it's a fact that trans women are men. As far as Christians are concerned, it's a fact that Jesus was the son of God. As far as 3 year olds are concerned, it's a fact that pigs wear dresses and drive cars. As far as flat earthers are concerned, it's a fact that the earth is flat.

If people didn't think their beliefs were facts, they wouldn't believe in them any more. You can say something is a fact until you're blue in the face; there will always be people who disagree.

Nice good faith engagement, there. Really well-reasoned!

I can see that this board can seem a touch harsh. But I think that that feeling is based on a deep-seated male-led belief that women should be 'nice'.
Why should people be 'nice' about this stuff? And why the expectation that a board dominated by women in particular should be accepting and all viewpoints?
The trans rights movement is based on a biological, legal and logical nonsense. Whilst I always try to keep my posts measured, it is frustrating to keep reading the same incoherent 'beliefs' argued as fact. And I am fairly new here and engage rarely.
For those who have been here for longer, fighting a fight that many still don't even know is going on, I totally understand why they get cross.

'Braying mob'

Do go on.

But in science things are either right or wrong. Binary sex has evolved a good 2 Billion years ago and is consistent throughout all eukaryotic life that procreates sexually. Unless you have some proper data that throws reasonable doubt on this you are simply wrong when you claim that sex is on a spectrum. Show me a third type of gamete and how it all fits in with evolution and we can talk. Vague "I've read something on the internet" won't cut it.

As far as TRAs are concerned, it's a fact that trans women are women. As far as gender critical people are concerned, it's a fact that trans women are men. As far as Christians are concerned, it's a fact that Jesus was the son of God. As far as 3 year olds are concerned, it's a fact that pigs wear dresses and drive cars. As far as flat earthers are concerned, it's a fact that the earth is flat.

All of these things can be argued and debated on Mumsnet.

You can’t debate TWAW on TRA Reddit or similar forums. Instant delete and ban.

This is an open. public forum. Anyone in the world can make an account and post here. If a post breaks the Mumsnet guidelines it can be reported and deleted. The vast majority on here are sex realist women and the forum is often used to share information about campaigns on this subject. There is no centralised person or group that controls what's posted on the board apart from the Mumsnet moderators who are only interested in keeping it within their general guidelines. When a poster comes along with a different point of view to sex realism they will be challenged. Some will be polite, some will be rude. That's the nature of debating on the internet.

Individual forum moderation policies aren't representative of global social groups of people.

By being what, hysterical was it? Not sure I am illustrating it ‘beautifully’. It’s a discussion board no? You’re just another ‘you’re all just ‘x, y and z’ with nothing to back up x, y and z. It gets a roll of the eyes at best. You’re not the first, won’t be the last on this board.

The point is they can ‘believe’ anything they like. Anyone can. By believing 2+2=5 will never be true. In the factual sense. Of course TRA’s believe trans women are women. But they’re not. It’s a delusion. The difference is there’s no argument to back it up, it always comes down to ‘just because we say so’. It’s also statistically a risk for men to have unfettered access to women’s spaces and sports. Can be backed up.
Some have attempted to say we as humans have lady brains or something but humans can’t change sex.

Whats the saying, you are entitled to your own opinions you aren’t entitled to your own facts.

Don’t hold your breath.

Well this is basically leftist argumentation in a nutshell - take the agentive, <X>, used in an argument against you and say: I know you are <X> but what am I?

So, for example.

Are TRA extremists?
They believe trans women are women - believe in trans medicine for children - believe men should be given unrestricted access to women's spaces and services including prisons and sports. 🤔

Are TRA fanatics?
No debate was the official policy - JKR must not be mentioned by name -'I know you are, but what am I' arguments - TRA capture of institutions invariably means TR primacy in policy, e.g., BBC, NHS, National Library of Scotland, etc. 🤔

🤣

I don't understand your point. Why is it a problem for women to react, get things wrong and have a laugh?

I'd say to her that if her reasoning depends on demanding you suspend your critical faculties and not open your mouth to voice opinion then it fails at a primary level and fails spectacularly under even the most cursory feminist scrutiny.

And yawn yes of course transpeople have been around forever. No one disputes that. And of course they deserve to co-exist peacefully in a society that allows them to be themselves. But that is not the same as demanding that a society pretends they are not trans but literally the opposite sex.

The key issue is self-ID which allows predators to use the trans movement to gain access to spaces which must be biologically binary if they are to remain safe for biological women.

The second most important issue is that no one can actually change sex, but there is a very evangelical movement out there funnelling teens into irreversible physical damage. Teens who have very ordinary everyday issues such as profound distress and rejection of their bodies at the onset of puberty (whoever loved puberty? Never met anyone yet); who are autistic and feel they don't fit socially but desparately hope this can be solved by switching gender which involves an in-built social tribe; or who are gay and come from an environment that sees being gay as a moral failing; or they are just desperately lonely and unhappy and want to be as different as possible from who they are now. Instead of being supported and reassured that all of this is normal - everyone hates puberty, most adolescents loathe their bodies, wish they were someone else, it is normal to wonder what life would be like as the opposite sex.

And finally - there is a rabid misogyny in the trans movement. A profound loathing of women that manifests like a parody of masculine entitlement: women should accommodate us - they should shut their mouths and open everything else so we get full access to whatever we want, whenever we want it without the onerous issue of female opinion. Women should open their doors, private spaces, their legs if their are lesbians to accommodate men who are transwomen.

If we can't talk about these things, why can't we? What and who is stopping us and why? Ask her that.

And yawn yes of course transpeople have been around forever. No one disputes that

I dispute that. They haven't 'been around forever'. Trans people was a recent invention to justify cross dressing men. The concept of men having to use female spaces to 'prove' they passed was a requirement made by the doctors who needed some 'proof' that they were 'living as a woman' before they chopped their penises off. They were never called 'trans people'. They were transsexuals or transvestites. Some wanted their penises removed, but most absolutely bloody loved their penises.

And everyone knew not to let them strip off in front of kids back in the day. Nowadays, people hear the word 'trans' and lose all sense of reality. Because of a long slow march of the ideology through the institutions that trained the people that now run most organisations and the civil service.

There was literally a slogan campaign, on banners and t shirts, supported by major organisations like Stonewall, that said:

No Debate.

Did you miss that as well?

My point was that, sometimes, this site can be just as guilty of falling into the same trap as TRAs on Reddit, etc. I think it's important to acknowledge that and be aware of it, as from an outsider's view who may be new to the boards, it can certainly read as rather aggressive and, at times, fanatical.

Most GC women are not on this site. This site is not representative of the average GC woman. Was I disappointed in my MIL for not being as well-read on this subject as I thought she might have been, considering she was up-to-speed on the NHS/Peggie details? Yes. Would calling her "thick" prove fruitful going forward? Defintely not.

Hopefully, just knowing ‘someone like you’, an old friend who shares many of her other political views, might just, in the long run, open a little door in her brain that GC women are all sorts and not, by definition ‘right wing’. But leave it for now. Just carry on showing her that you are not a Nazi, that you care about lots of different women’s rights issues and that you are not obsessed or part of a cult. Let her bring it up if she wants. Be proud of yourself for seeing through this. I’m sorry she said those horrible things to you. She’s wrong.

I remember that; now widely regarded as a terrible idea for a campaign and far more harmful than positive for all involved.

Again, suggesting that the people responsible for that represent all trans people and trans supporters is like suggesting that Trump and Tommy Robinson represent all gender critical people.

Most people, including most people on MN, seem to recognise that there absolutely is debate to be had about protecting everyone, defending rights and supporting people, with different views on what that protection, defence and support looks like.

She sounds very privileged. The type who would definitely side with a university educated doctor over a lowly nurse, for example.

And where are all these moderate trans people of whom you speak? Were they on the news after the Supreme Court ruling? Have they condemned the acts of violence from the prominent TRAs? Did they engage with FWS or Sex Matters? Are they holding a music concert in support of having a good debate on balancing the rights of everyone?

We must have missed them all.

Most GC women are not on this site.

I asked @DontGoJasonWaterfalls but they didn't answer me, so I'll ask you: where else are GC beliefs positively discussed on the internet? Where else can I go to get educated on GC beliefs?