Are we extremist and fanatical?

[RogueFemale]

We, as in gender critical/sex realist women.

I saw an old schoolfriend today, to exchange Christmas gifts over tea and biscuits. She's highly educated and intelligent, v. firmly feminist (in the sense of anti-patriarchy, and wanting women to use Ms not Miss or Mrs). Has travelled widely, knows a lot about other cultures etc.

Politics came up and I mentioned Phillipson blocking the ECHR guidance, and how I wasn't happy about it.

Turns out she thinks my gender critical views are extremist and fanatical. Actual words. I knew already she was inclined to the 'be kind' end of the spectrum, and that we disagreed, but this was new - that I'm an extremist.

That I was being unkind and TiM had a right to exist (I said of course they do, but...). That I should keep my views to myself, if I didn't want to be regarded as a nasty person, essentially.

I said, 'you don't understand'. She was having none of it, said she understands very well, and how there's been gender fluidity since time began. (And these poor TiM have nowhere to pee if they can't go in the ladies, as they'll get abused if they go in the mens).

But she really doesn't understand what is happening now.

I tried to tell her about autogynophilia, about how TiM have been attacking women who protest, the pattern these men have of abuse convictions, same as all men, etc. I said I could send her stuff to prove my points, she said, please don't.

Just a bit depressed to be told by an old friend that I'm a fanatical extremist weirdo, really.

I like Naomi's analogy with the alive/dead binary for this. Sure, if you look at considerations in intensive care units, relating to transplants, etc, you find that there are cases where it is difficult to decide whether an individual is dead or alive, and even cases where it may depend on your choice of definition, in that indications that practically always align may, on occasion, not align. Nevertheless, in our day to day lives, we don't have too much trouble working out who's alive and who's dead. ETA and we certainly don't use the difficult cases as reason to argue that the difference between being alive and being dead doesn't exist or doesn't matter!

We should be extremist about believing that women exist, and have rights, and are exploited by men - and that women are entitled to privacy and safety and dignity and spaces that exclude men.

We should be extremist about the fact that disadvantaged, powerless women in prisons are forced to share space with violent men.

We should be extremist about the old ladies, ill, and frightened by semi-clothed men in their hospital wards.

We should be extremist about the teenage girls forced to share open plan changing rooms with middle aged aged men.

We should be extremist about the sexualised violent rhetoric directed by porn-addled men and their allies at women who dare to say no.

We should be extremist about the lesbian spaces infiltrated by men seeking a sexual kick.

We should be extremist about the mutilation of autistic/lesbian girls, and their permanent loss of sexual function.

We should be extremist about the silencing of women, about our reality being erased by porn junkies.

Extremism is NOT a dirty word. And your ‘friend’ sounds like a preening moron condoning the exploitation of women because she thinks at some level it makes her look good. I mean, she wouldn’t condone blackface, would she?

This forum on MN certainly is an echo chamber and not really interesting imo. It’s just a bunch of Mumsnetters now congratulating themselves at being in the right and everyone else are morons.

How can it be an echo chamber if you're here having your say, which differs from the majority view, and yet you haven't been deleted?

Didn't think that through did you?

Your second sentence is correct though, although 'morons ' is a little harsh even to describe GI believers. 'Deluded' would be more accurate.

It’s an echo chamber because despite being supposedly feminist forum, only women with certain opinions are accepted and you receive the most hostile responses to your posts if they don’t “fit”. Most posters retreat as it’s not the forum for them and this makes it an echo chamber. Only certain voices accepted.

And yet here you are...

Not for long. It’s the most hostile forum
on MN.

Thanks for calling.

If you want the most hostile forum on MN I suggest you give CITME a go, or perhaps the Royal Family.

It’s nothing feminist about this forum. It’s not welcome to women unless you are have the exact same opinions as everyone else you will be bullied out of here.

No one is "bullied out of here"

People may cease to engage if they can't make a robust argument or defend it. That's on them.

The people here have made me feel welcome, despite me being a man. On the other hand, I have been literally shouted and screamed at by trans allies for not agreeing with them. I don't know any group of people who are perfect, but I know where people are listened to and engaged in debate, and where people are dismissed as fascists.

I would leave her alone , as she’s asked.

Yes, in the current climate it is extreme to say sex is sex and to carry that through to some (to me) fairly obvious conclusions. I’m an extremist on this issue but that doesn’t necessarily mean I think public policy should only accommodate me. Asking faux naive ‘questions’ isn’t a way forward either imo. Asking questions as a rhetorical device, if you don’t really want to challenge your own beliefs, isn’t a way to treat a friend.

It isn’t easy or simple in practice, and it’s unfortunate that FWR has too many ‘end of’ type standard statements imo, several of which contradict each other.

I see people bullied on here a the time. I rarely post, sometimes vist and leave again. Only certain opinions are welcome. There is no recognition or interest in different opinions. This is not a place people are seeking to learn. So yes this is an extremist board and not welcoming to many women.

Again, my experience here is quite different. I have learned a great deal here.

The fact that you have used the words welcome and welcoming many times is very telling. Why are women automatically supposed to be welcoming?
Women's refusal to adhere to this sexist stereotype can be challenging for some people.

So yes this is an extremist board and not welcoming to many women.

Yet despite this, the opinions held by those on this forum have been taken to the highest courts of the land by people including some from this forum, and won case after case protecting the rights of women throughout the UK, and gradually increased protections of children from the harms of medical treatments. How “extremist” 🙄

So even if it’s “not welcoming”, it’s a place where women are benefiting whether they feel “welcomed” by the forum or not.

But believing sex is a spectrum and that humans can change biological sex aren't opinions deserving of respect. The Science is clear, sex IS a binary, and a human's sex cannot change.

Sex as a sliding spectrum isn't a hateful view, as such. But if govt policies are based on this nonsense, the consequences can be very damaging, even fatal, for women and girls.

Would you listen respectfully to a flat earther or someone who believed that the moon landings were fake? Would you expect them to be warmly welcomed within an online community for those interested in astronomy and space travel?

A gender critical poster on Reddit would be promptly downvoted & shadowbanned to oblivion. It is strictly forbidden to say 'Sex is a binary' or 'TWAM' on a Reddit Transgender sub. Instant permanent ban. Silenced forever.

Now that's intolerance.

A non-exhaustive list of fanatical extremists:

The Suffragettes.
The Chartists.
Harriet Tubman.
Elizabeth Fry.
Socrates.
Nelson Mandela.
Frederick Douglass.
Sojourner Truth.
Ghandi.
Florence Nightingale.
The Dagenham factory women.
The founders of trade unionism.
Diane Fossey.
Mary Wollstencroft.
Jeremy Bentham.

Of course there are plenty of less savoury ones too, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to be.

Strictly speaking, given 'extremist' views are typically contrasted with those of moderates I would have to agree with this characterisation.

In terms of 'fanatical', being obsessively concern with something seems to apply as well.

But to be fair, so were the Suffragettes. Successful political movements often require single minded militant views.

The Guilty Feminist and her ilk have a lot to answer for.

Sex is a spectrum seems to be a common argument when it comes to using single sex spaces but not so much when it’s something like puberty blockers where going through the ‘wrong puberty’ seems to be well defined.

Just no.
I cannot believe there are still people out there pushing this drivel.

No OP. We are not ‘extremist’. And expressing a view about the situation is not ‘fanatical’. Of course, If that is all you talk about in your life, then that could be said to be true.

It is likely though that your friend is merely uncomfortable with your difference of opinion on this. Your friend seems to have been comfortable repeating tropish and untrue talking points though. A sign that your friend hasn’t thought deeply about the issue and done the research, merely accepted misinformed or inaccurately described history as being accurate. And not adequately understanding safeguarding principles.

So what opinions of the people on here do you not agree with? I mean, I disagree with quite a few people on here on some subjects, but I do agree sex is binary and immutable, women have the right to single sex spaces and the trans lobby is a men’s rights movement.